dingie Ingie question time

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IngieBee
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dingie Ingie question time

Postby IngieBee » Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:49 pm

Hey, will we ever be able to see nurbs in real time engines?

If so, how far in the future? Can they be combined with traditional modeling and if so, is there a loss in efficiency due to combining the meathods?

Sorry, but wanna know???

Thanks,Ingie

Bandoler
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Postby Bandoler » Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:28 pm

Well, since version 3 of the Quake engine, Bezier patchess are supported, which is already something. Also, i think, GeForce from version 3 above, and probably ATI's cards, support GL evaluators in hardware, which accelerates the operations on NURBS made by the GLU.

However i'm afraid that NURBS are being replaced in general modelling, because they are mathematically complex, by dynamic subdivision surfaces, which provide a simpler method to do the same and are easier to deal with.

However, i'm not an expert on this field and some of what i've said may be wrong...

Bandoler

P.S. I don't know it is there already, but they where considering to implement some kind of subsurfs in the hardware of PS2.

IngieBee
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Postby IngieBee » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:48 am

Thanks for the input, I see that things are indeed going in that direction, which is totally cool. I didn't even know that much, thanks so much again!

Ingie

Saluk
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Postby Saluk » Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:58 am

Using nurbs/subsurfs in realtime would be nice, because the models would take up a lot less memory than converting a subsurfed object to an actual mesh. Whether there would be a speedup is hard to say... I must say I'm not really clamoring for this feature, because A)Blender is too slow at the moment anyway for any kind of object that would need to be a nurbs object, and B)Converting a nurbs/subsurf to a game engine supported mesh is just a few keypresses away.

Edit: wanted to add that while I seem a bit negative on higher-order objects, the benefits of them are that if it is run on a faster computer, the curve will look smoother. Which is a nice thing, because you don't have to modify the models and they will continue to look better. So in the future this would be a good addtion, its just not all that high of a priority at the moment,

Zarf
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Postby Zarf » Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:42 pm

Using nurbs/subsurfs in realtime would be nice, because the models would take up a lot less memory than converting a subsurfed object to an actual mesh. Whether there would be a speedup is hard to say...


All the new generation of 3d accelerators are going to have built in support for higher order, implicit surfaces. Speed isn't a huge issue as far as actually getting the models on the screen in a usable form as much as LOD/scene managment issues would be.

I must say I'm not really clamoring for this feature, because A)Blender is too slow at the moment anyway for any kind of object that would need to be a nurbs object, and B)Converting a nurbs/subsurf to a game engine supported mesh is just a few keypresses away.


A): Blender is slow for a completley different reason (lack of a Scene magament/Culling algorithm such as portals, BSP trees, octrees ect.)and as a I pointed out above, if proper support for the newest generation of 3d accelerators were implemented no slowdown above and beyond the current lack of speed should be noticable in most cases.

B): theres ton's of reasons this is an inadequate solution to Ingie's (and many game developers) problem.

Saluk wrote:Edit: wanted to add that while I seem a bit negative on higher-order objects, the benefits of them are that if it is run on a faster computer, the curve will look smoother. Which is a nice thing, because you don't have to modify the models and they will continue to look better. So in the future this would be a good addtion, its just not all that high of a priority at the moment,


There are many benefits from the artists stand point as well.

As far as priority I think that a culling algorithm is important to implement. It might be worthwile to implement Culling algorithms as actuators that you can add to certain objects (for instance, your building an indoor level out of seperate meshes that are linked togather as rooms, add a 'bsp tree' or 'octree' actuator to the ones that you want to speed up. Possibly link them all togather with portals. It would be an interesting experiment in mixing different methods for calculating potential visibility sets at the very least. the actual tree (since most of them mangle geometry) could be stored internally as non-editable objects and when you calculate them it freezes the current geomtry until you free the tree buffer if you want to edit it further. different actuators could be added for landscape rendering as well. I think this is doable while staying within the constraints of making it user friendly and intuitive.)

Zarf
-------------
Ack!Nosighere!

Zarf
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Postby Zarf » Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm

the forum is acting up. apologies for multiple posts
Last edited by Zarf on Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zarf
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:54 am

Postby Zarf » Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:46 pm

Using nurbs/subsurfs in realtime would be nice, because the models would take up a lot less memory than converting a subsurfed object to an actual mesh. Whether there would be a speedup is hard to say...


All the new generation of 3d accelerators are going to have built in support for higher order, implicit surfaces. Speed isn't a huge issue as far as actually getting the models on the screen in a usable form as much as LOD/scene managment issues would be.

I must say I'm not really clamoring for this feature, because A)Blender is too slow at the moment anyway for any kind of object that would need to be a nurbs object, and B)Converting a nurbs/subsurf to a game engine supported mesh is just a few keypresses away.


A): Blender is slow for a completley different reason (lack of a Scene magament/Culling algorithm such as portals, BSP trees, octrees ect.)and as a I pointed out above, if proper support for the newest generation of 3d accelerators were implemented no slowdown above and beyond the current lack of speed should be noticable in most cases.

B): theres ton's of reasons this is an inadequate solution to Ingie's (and many game developers) problem.

Saluk wrote:Edit: wanted to add that while I seem a bit negative on higher-order objects, the benefits of them are that if it is run on a faster computer, the curve will look smoother. Which is a nice thing, because you don't have to modify the models and they will continue to look better. So in the future this would be a good addtion, its just not all that high of a priority at the moment,


There are many benefits from the artists stand point as well.

As far as priority I think that a culling algorithm is important to implement. It might be worthwile to implement Culling algorithms as actuators that you can add to certain objects (for instance, your building an indoor level out of seperate meshes that are linked togather as rooms, add a 'bsp tree' or 'octree' actuator to the ones that you want to speed up. Possibly link them all togather with portals. It would be an interesting experiment in mixing different methods for calculating potential visibility sets at the very least. the actual tree (since most of them mangle geometry) could be stored internally as non-editable objects and when you calculate them it freezes the current geomtry until you free the tree buffer if you want to edit it further. different actuators could be added for landscape rendering as well. I think this is doable while staying within the constraints of making it user friendly and intuitive.)

Zarf
-------------
Ack!Nosighere!


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