particles / tuhopuu update 17/04/2004 - testing help needed!

User-contributed CVS development builds. Please test and give feedback!

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Monkeyboi
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Postby Monkeyboi » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:15 pm

Same thoughts over here too! These settings should go with next to the effects panel, please!
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Or even better, start work on the Effects buttons window which will also include the Particle gravity and deflection options. Here is the link if you have forgotten: http://www.shadeless.dk/ui/particles.jpg In my oppinion this will really improve matters for particles. The current effects tab is too wide and still the buttons are crazily cramped and full of mad abbriviations that are impossible to figure out what means. The addition of the effects button window (and the removal of the current effects panel in the Object buttons) would make the particles much more accesible. One change from the mockup was agreed on though: the gravity/deflection options should always be apparent in this window and you shouldn't have to set it to a Particle effect to achieve deflection/gravity.

leon
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Postby leon » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:57 pm

hi all,

cheers for all the comments / testing!

The new panel now resides in the edit buttons, I think that's a weird place. ............... I had to contiuously switch between edit buttons and object buttons to recalculate the particles and tweak the particles etc.


Yup, I agree with you - I found the same myself! There's just no space in the object tab right now and I only have a certain amount of time to work on this! It was either work on the particle effects, or reprogramming the UI! But if I get time, I will have a go at something similar to the mockup.

That makes me think of the recalc button. Isn't that a bit ancient? I have the idea that when you press the button, it's a snap for blender to calculate it.


Well... I'm not sure that you want this, if you have a particle system with lots of deflectors and attractors, and 50,000 particles!!!! It can take a long time to recalculate, so it's probably best to keep it as it is!

Also I couldn't get the nice results you have on your webpage. The deflector works very strange. More like a sin wave than a real ... bounce


This is probably because you have the number of particle keys still set to 8 (the default value). Try increasing to 50 or 100 for better results!

Cheers

Leon

Apollux
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Postby Apollux » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:11 pm

Actually, I think that the deflection/gravity settings SHOULD NOT be in the Effects panel.

In case you haven't noticed, that panel is for FXs that originate within the object, but now we are facing properties that afect how THIS object intercact with the efectst originated on other objects, and more important, we are speaking of an interaction that takes place at the vertex level.

That leaves only two logical places where to place the settings: On the edit buttons (because the vertex-level nature), or in the Dynamics buttons (because the inter-object relations).

IF you would have the gravity/deflection settings inside the Efects panel, then the whole thing should be implemented like a new efect: Select Mesh -> Add Efect -> Efect Type: Particle Deflection

That later option seems like a lot of non-necesary extra steps, just what the old interface was infamous for.

gabio
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Postby gabio » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:28 pm

Apollux wrote:Actually, I think that the deflection/gravity settings SHOULD NOT be in the Effects panel.

In case you haven't noticed, that panel is for FXs that originate within the object, but now we are facing properties that afect how THIS object intercact with the efectst originated on other objects, and more important, we are speaking of an interaction that takes place at the vertex level.

That leaves only two logical places where to place the settings: On the edit buttons (because the vertex-level nature), or in the Dynamics buttons (because the inter-object relations).

IF you would have the gravity/deflection settings inside the Efects panel, then the whole thing should be implemented like a new efect: Select Mesh -> Add Efect -> Efect Type: Particle Deflection

That later option seems like a lot of non-necesary extra steps, just what the old interface was infamous for.


Ho! Realy great point there. I agree on this

wavk
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Postby wavk » Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:53 am

I never sayd it should be in the Effects panel! I would like to see it on the object buttons, next to the Effects panel.

Although the interaction takes place at vertex level (and face level), I think it doesn't belong in the edit buttons, because it's an overall effect. You can't set several vertices to have the effect and others not. So it's not supposed to be in the edit buttons, it has nothing to do with editing a mesh.

Look at it in the same way the Draw type panel was moved from the edit buttons to the object buttons, it's an overall object thing, and hasn't anything to do with individual vertices and faces.

llunasol
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Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:09 pm

Postby llunasol » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:24 am

Hi everybody.

MonkeyBoy, your proposal of new panel arrangement for the particle system makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe something could be changed by the general picture is clear. I hope it could be added to the official Blender quite soon, in fact the particles systems is a basic feature that is growing on Tohopuu on a powerful direction. What a beautiful waterfalls are possible with that Tohopuu versions, can Blender-users live without that? :wink:

Best regards.

llunasol
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Postby llunasol » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:51 pm

I've seen that this Tohopuu release has the new textures system but not the new AO system on the world. Will it be added?

yamyam
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 8:39 am

Postby yamyam » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:42 pm

Thank you leon for nice effect!
but the surface damping looks affecting nothing for me... :(

I agree WAVK's proposal. Currently, we have to change buttons window when we tweak the emitter(perticle panel) and others.

leon
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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:14 am

Postby leon » Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:37 am

hi all,

right, on the effects panel, it looks like i have something to do for "golden week" (big national holiday coming up at the end of next week!)... I probably won't rearrange the effects panel in quite such an ambitious way as Monkeyboi proposed, but will try and create a new "effects" tab, with the current effects panel, and the particle interaction settings.

yamyam - you said that surface damping has no effect: can you post an example .blend somewhere I can try and debug with? It works fine for me.

Cheers

Leon

yamyam
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Postby yamyam » Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:23 am

leon wrote:yamyam - you said that surface damping has no effect: can you post an example .blend somewhere I can try and debug with? It works fine for me.

Sorry leon, I forgot press [RecalcAll] Buttons... :oops:

llunasol
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Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:09 pm

Postby llunasol » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:05 pm

Hi Leon and all.

I've made some kind of waterfall. The file is quite simple, just a small plane emiting particles downward and a terrain grid plane to contain them and create some turbulence.

There something wrong on the way the particles interact with the plane sine some particles "cross" the terrain, and that has the "permeability" value to 0, so any particle should "cross" the mesh-plane. At least that's what I understand :wink:

Is it buggy? Maybe your system is working only on "squared non-grid" planes? I've been looking at the particles behaviour and except the ones that cross the mesh the rest "run" very properly through the turbulences that the terrain produce.

Well, I hope it could help you. The file is here. Best regards.

leon
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Postby leon » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:52 pm

hi llunasol,

thanks for the testing and the .blend, it's really appreciated!

You're right: "non-planar quad" faces are a problem at the moment. This is something I have some ideas on fixing, but needs a little more thought!

To make things a little better in your scene (but not perfect!), try using triangle faces. Just in case you don't know, in edit mode on your terrain go to "Mesh" menu then "Faces" and "Convert quads to triangles". Another thing which helps is to increase the "keys" setting on the emitter to 100 (of course this slows down the calculation a bit!)

Anyway, I'll be using your file to test some ideas I have for fixing the problem where particles can leak at the seams between faces...

Thanks,

Leon

llunasol
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Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:09 pm

Postby llunasol » Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:13 pm

Hi Leon.

It's true, both using triangles and setting Key at 100 on the emitter almost reduces the "lost" particles to almost residual consideration. All in all it could be nice if you could solve that issue, since your solutions is neat and effective. I've been more enthusiastically surprised with the effectivenes on the turbulence created by the terrain than deceived by the "lost particles".

I feel that your developement is an important issue to add to the particles system. The results on my tiny test file simulating the water behaviour of a waterfall, and the resulting river, or what could be the behaviour of the smoke coming down the rocket tubes on a classic space-rocket launching (where smoke and flames deflecting from the ground) are very interesting results to get from a software like Blender, more considering that you're so close to it.

Let me comment something on the interface result. The panel presented by Monkeyboy looks gorgeous but probably too drastic to became true (I hope it could became real, anyway), but now I don't like that the particles system and the mesh deflection/gravity panels are so far. Every time I want to change some setting I have to click one mesh, one button to go the other panel, back to the other mesh, another button ... I feel that both things being so related could be closer. But, well, the present solution is logical itself.

Best regards.

Koba
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Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:48 am

Postby Koba » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:46 am

Hi

I'm no coder but I'd like to say that this is really great work!

I'm just thinking that in the future, particle deflection and slightly modified metaballs could create realistic water dynamics. The metaballs would have to create a surface tension effect and/or the particles themselves would have to have some kind of self interaction (to keep particles form clumping). The metaballs would need to be converted into relatively low poly count meshes to keep rendering times down. This is kind of like the system used in the Realflow plugin. Fluid dynamics would be a fantastic feature for Blender to have.

Anyway, never mind that for now. Keep up the great work!

Koba.

P.S>Please forgive me if this isn't such a helpful post :?

Tizmo
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:50 am

Postby Tizmo » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:11 pm

Hi,
Just tried it out on my P3 600 Mhz, Voodoo 5 5500, 256 Mb RAM, no problems at all.

Just one question though, can I have the particles 'orbiting' the gravity object? Or is this not possible because the particles don't have actual mass?

Keep up the good work ;).


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