Is there any status of new or better IK bones ?

Animation tools, character animation, non linear animation

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Money_YaY!
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Is there any status of new or better IK bones ?

Postby Money_YaY! » Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:27 am

Just curious is there any new status of anyone bulding something new for faster rig building? I recall the old ika blender had some sort of area control field for the previous bone structure. Could this be possible in Python ?

There has to be a faster way to test out quick rigs.

z3r0_d
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Postby z3r0_d » Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:32 am

is there something wrong with "create vertex groups from nearest bones"?

you seem to be asking about creating vertex groups, not actually making the rig any faster

well anyway, blender has had an autorigging function always when you chose to not create the groups [and they don't exist], but it has run VERY slow, and it worked about the same way as IK's deformed the mesh. at least, that is as much as I remember, it may have changed since 2.25

Money_YaY!
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Postby Money_YaY! » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:36 pm

z3r0_d wrote:is there something wrong with "create vertex groups from nearest bones"?

you seem to be asking about creating vertex groups, not actually making the rig any faster

well anyway, blender has had an autorigging function always when you chose to not create the groups [and they don't exist], but it has run VERY slow, and it worked about the same way as IK's deformed the mesh. at least, that is as much as I remember, it may have changed since 2.25


I know I use it all of the time but it is still messy. Like if I make a hand the fingers will create vertex groups of the other fingers to,

Or if I make a fully IK rigged armature chain and try and reuse it on some thing else the auto group will just make a mess of vertex groups.

I was just hoping someone had worked on it somewhat to make it cleaner or give more options.

hello
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Postby hello » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:38 pm

I think this is what Money_YaY is talking about, but it seems like it would be more convenient if you could define an area (an elipsoid) around a particular bone, and instead of dealing with vertex groups, it would automatically deform vertices within the volume. This would also eliminate problems with adding more vertices and having to re-assign them to their corresponding deformation group.

Money_YaY!
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Postby Money_YaY! » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:50 pm

hello wrote:I think this is what Money_YaY is talking about, but it seems like it would be more convenient if you could define an area (an elipsoid) around a particular bone, and instead of dealing with vertex groups, it would automatically deform vertices within the volume. This would also eliminate problems with adding more vertices and having to re-assign them to their corresponding deformation group.


Bingo!

dcuny
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Postby dcuny » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:13 am

There are pros and cons with every approach. For an example of a program that uses bounding areas you can play with the free program Anim8or:

Image

Unfortunately, it's darned tricky to get this to work with certain shapes. For example, to get fingers properly set without overlapping other nearby fingers. It's akin to fiddling with areas of influence with blobs. People are generally unhappy with this system, and so the next version of Anim8or will probably support vertex groups. :?

solmax
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Postby solmax » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:23 am

i personally don't like the bounding-volume approach - although many other packages have it (lw, max) as an option, only hand-weighting is the real thing. tweaking the bounding volumes is in many cases a pain and not really faster then setting up weights manually.

Money_YaY!
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Postby Money_YaY! » Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:14 am

why not have both at the same time ? For hands it could be bones to hold the lenth and little balls for the joints so it just shares the joint vertices.

Or it could just be used as a tool to "create" the vertex groups as a freeze and can then be edited at a later point, but would not be a constant control thing just a setup and edit control.

Or some kind of fill tool.

Iknow there is some better method, I have seen other tools they work better for this. Someone can do it, there are some many new things coming about, rigging has to be next in line hopefuly

oin
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Postby oin » Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:59 pm

I fully agree with solmax and fully agree with money yay.

if that's possible ;)

I mean: I worked in a team and the other guy said he prefered do a rig first with physique envelopes.(skin modifier ones were worse) Afte rthat, for fine tunning (not just a matter of detail: envelopes leave u only a rough aproach, trust me..good even not for just toons) I rather prefered direct hand manipulation, even some vertex weight paiting, abut at the end, was all lasso selecting, tweaking values, rotation test of arms, tweaking a different value to the selection, etc.

In other team(team=company), one of the guys (I didnt animate there) liked envelopes, othe vertices. But....actually the vertex guy used to have to fix at vertex level the envelope weights of the other one, haha ...was fun to see.

Well, soem people say, and I think so too, that if the envelopes are not a nightmare to handle (happens to often) , then it can be quick to do a first rough approach with em , and then fine tune at vertex level.

One thing is clear (I tested personally during weeks with Anim8or and character fx.That lead me to buy character fx, which is only vertex level) That envelopes alone don't carry you to any reasonable place. Vertex alone do (these days implementation in Blender)

Both together, leave that decission to the user.....could be nice.
Though I'd invest time better in other stuff. I mean, it's already functional..but for example, joint pinning is a funcionality not really yet in Blender...though is coming with the huge effort of some ;)

I think envelopes may mean more speed in the first step, which is good, but i don't see it essential.

Money_YaY!
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Postby Money_YaY! » Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:57 pm

I posted this to fun borad as a clean up of the work flow.



With all of the great stuff happening to other parts of the code. What
is happening with Armatures ?
A few people were trying to make a python vertex group layout selector
but could not get the selection part for whatever reason.

Is anyone working to streamline the work flow at least ?

Like example:
Tuhopuu has a great simple auto IK. It is great for just some quick
test rigs. Though has yet to see a BF release.
When working with armature rigs a basic rigging flow is after parented.:
Enter pose mode, grab bone to see deformation leave pose mode. Select
mesh enter bone paint mode select vertex group in a popup menu in edit
window, rotate view and adjust the paint in the paint control window,
paint. Exit . Repeat.

Now to make this faster, it flows like this with keyboard short cuts,
which in turn "is not faster".
Move mouse to select armature, press alt tab enter pose mode, use mouse
select bone, if needed press tap to enter the confusing edit mode that
make the bones jump at times and selection is different and takes a
border select to get one bone unlike pose mode. press tab, exit edit
and pose mode. Use mouse to select mesh, move mouse to select bone
paint mode since there is no shortcut that I know of. Find the correct
vertex group in the edit menu and adjust paint in another window.

To much mouse needless mouse movement and entering and exiting edit
modes.

It could be streamlined so much.

Remove bone edit mode, replace with just pose mode and let pose mode
select both: joints and full bones.
Have a key shortcut to enter the child meshes bone paint mode.
Have a feature to select the vertex group with either a oops style
item, or a border select to do an auto Link style select all in the
group.
N key to give a floating slider for the paints brush size and strength.

Would save lots of needless mouse movement and selections, plus it
would cut down on the needless use of to many windows.

Just ideas with very little code needed.


Oops more. :D

A hide mesh feature in paint mode.
Sub surface instead on polys. I have seen it, lightwave has it, so it
is possible.
I was incorrect in the two windows for weights slider. So that is a bit
better. It is with the vertex groups. Good. Still have to have the
second window for size though softness and opacity.

ton
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Postby ton » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:30 pm

I just started looking at the hybrid method yes. Bones can get (automatic) envelope/volumes assigned, with inner/outer volumes.

Options could be like;

- display volumes (in 3d window)
- edit volumes (in 3d window)
- per Bone, have option to use envelopes, or vertex-group, or both!
- apply (for selected Bones) envelopes to the vertex-groups

alyx
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Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:53 pm

Postby alyx » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:43 pm

I'm really impressed at all the thought that is going into how Blender's armature/bones system should be developed and the breadth of the ideas that have been expressed in the forums.

This might be a little off topic, but I thought I would just give the link to a company called Unchained Geometry which seems to be doing some rather interesting work in the areas of medial axis computation/geometric modeling/vertex deformation. Could be helpful, or it might just be irrelevant ...see what you think.

http://www.unchainedgeometry.com/


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