Survey!! V.2.5 G.U.I. (graphical user interface)

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:09 am

harmonic wrote:Maybe my English is not so good... may be I'm not be able to explain so well... so I will explain in My main language...
Perhaps. But you should be aware that most people except of Italians don't understand Italian and if everyone would write in his/ her native language... whoooo... Better not think about it. But I give it a try in understanding...
E' incredibile... ho avuto a che fare con gente di tutti i tipi ma come in questo posto mai... lo giuro!!
What do you mean? Is it incredible that there are people on the world that don't share your opinions? Or that people where not waiting for a self-declared highness telling them what is right and what not? Not at all.
Vi si chiedeva semplicemente di dare una vostra impressione tra i vari software presenti sul mercato al fine di dare qualche consiglio ai programmatori per rendere piu' potente e intuitivo questo software.
Yeah, but you forgot to mention quite some programs - including Blender. Don't you think that there are people that like the approach and know other software - some of them quite well and even use them besides of and along with Blender?

If I want I can still install Maya here. I've got a (paid) license - though it's quite old (I'd have to check it but I think the last version I have is 6.x). I simply don't want to. I named you the reasons and so did others with their reasons. It's more incredible that you don't understand this...
La richiesta era del tutto legittima e comunque non offensiva!!
Well, yes, your first posting was not offensive at all. No one considered it as that, I guess. But it was funny because you come over to a Blender forum asking which (foreign) UI shall be implemented and don't even mention Blender. That 's worth a good laugh, I would say.
Se vi siete offesi perché ho lasciato intendere che l'interfaccia di blender fa schifo mi dispiace..
You should note that this is not the problem. You should better realize that there are people out there that like the way it is (meaning the concept - not the status).

As I mentioned before (and when your italian temper exploded you twisted my words - which in fact *is* offensive from my cultural background - seemingly not in Italy, but I could be wrong): Nobody claimed any perfection. But Blender is for recurring (modelling) work the most efficient program. It only needs minimal input to accomplish a task. Other software might be prettier and more "conventional" (though this has been proved wrong a couple of times) but needs more user input. This slows down your speed and is not as ergonomic.

Sure. This speed has its cost: You've got to learn the shortcuts and get used to the strange look and feel. It can pay you great dividends if you like that way of doing things. If you prefer an other approach then you should use a program that is more convenient for *you*. Which is totally ok.

So your approach to this topic is wrong and you should rethink your attitude.
questa é una mia opinione... mi dispiace veramente per voi credetemi..
Which is totally ok. You can have any opinion you want to have. So do I have my own and others theirs. Got it? No?
ma di fatto moltissime persone la pensano esattamente come me...
That's a reason why such a rich variety of software exists. No one is forced to use a tool he doesn't want. And I for my part don't want [fill in the blank with any of the apps you've named].
rispettate anche le idee altrui altrimenti siete come i fascisti!!!
As I said: Check your attitude and the way you are propagating your so-called opinion. Seems more to me that *you* don't respect other ideas... :roll:

So you'd better keep things slow instead of using such a loud speech...
Non sono un inglese madrelingua... ma di certo capisco quello che mi scrivete...
No, you did not understand or don't want to understand. That's for sure.
mentre voi sembrate non capire un cazzo di quello che scrivo io!!
People got what you wrote. And many people are tired of writing the same answers to it over and over. (And please keep your cazzo where it belongs...)
Non ho mai scritto che vorrei Blender come Maya2... semmai lo vorrei + simile a Cinema 4D V10....
Perhaps I would use Cinema 4D if was more like Blender. Who knows? But what do you think? Are they waiting for my helpful genius to dictate them what to do?

Got it now?

If you really want to improve an existing program (that you actually don't use but would like to use if it was some other program - whoo) you should at least know it, then concentrate on specific topics and make proposals that say what should be changed how and explain why it is better in comparison to the implemented solution. Making a "survey" on what different UI should be implemented is total nonsense, as people have different needs and ideas.
Per quanto riguarda il discorso della manualistica.... se blender avesse un'interfaccia migliore forse + gente riuscirebbe ad usarlo anche senza tanti manuali e tutorial... e senza bisogno di spaccarsi la testa ad imparare hotkey ed a cercare in mezzo a menu' nascosti... comunque ribadisco... queste sono mie opinioni quindi ognuno é libero di pensarla come vuole...
Honestly, we had this discussion too often and always came to one conclusion: Software will never be "intuitive" - especially if it comes to complex matter like 3D. There are only different ways. Some are better for some people, others are not. Some are more common, some easier to learn but more difficult in day by day usage, some are more efficient than other. And so on...

So you always will need manuals, tutorials, etc. There's even a whole industry that makes loads of money with courses, training videos and instruction books! And there are plenty of help forums and the like. Especially around the applications you have named. So this one is a total non-point for you, as the real-world proves you wrong!
Quindi se proprio dovete entrare nel MIO TOPIC per dare risposte... datele almeno non contro una persona che voleva solo rendersi utile..
And so did people. The only thing is that you have totally underestimated that people like it that way - and even have good reasons for it. Though there's plenty room for improvement - so if you want to be helpful then pick something specific out, make a proposal and then we will see if it's better or not, if it can be realized at all or if there is even a better solution. This would be the right way.
Perdete piuttosto un attimo di tempo per dare qualche consiglio a chi può veramente fare qualcosa per migliorare un software che potrebbe surclassare in futuro i + blasonati software commerciali.
But trust me: The way you've set up your "survey" is not only time lost - it's a waste of time!
And now translate... geni che non siete altro..
I did my very best in reading und tried to understand... I guess I've understood over 95% of it... But I'm no Italian at all... ;)

tsgfilmwerks
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:31 am

Post by tsgfilmwerks » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:26 am

Yeah, I would hate not knowing where stuff is. Blender's GUI works quickly, and it looks the same no matter what system you're in (except certain crappy mandatory system upgrades that ruin the interface speed... the two top commercial systems share that sin)
joeri wrote:I think blender 2.5 should have as less change in interface as possible.

Changing interfaces renders all documentation useless.

And harmonic, this is *my* "gift" to the community and if you dont accept that I'll ban suzanne to the isle of Man... :

Hundreds of people support blender ( I mean the real support, not the crappy "I know how to bloat on a forum" support ) by spending time and effort to write tutorials and books. And tape screengrabs and create images that look like a million bucks.
They do this in a blender they took time to learn and understand.
Sure there are "I whish, and why is there not..."

In the more then 10 years I've been around blender I've been hearing loads of requests to change the interface into another one, an no-one of the requesters could ever found their reason.
Meaning: If you like Maya so bad, go get Maya. Why would blender go be Maya2 ? If you can answer that question in a reasonable way then I'm sure it will have a Maya interface in a week or two.

Not confinced? Go get the new Creature Factory and see what a blender pro can do. I have yet to see a Maya "Master" do the same in the same amount of time.

harmonic
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:15 pm

Post by harmonic » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:21 pm

I am sorry but you have understood a lot less than 95%...

And however those that don't want to understand are you!

First of all... I have never said that blender must be as Cinema or as Maya etc. as a dictat!!!!

And I have never said that blender is not a powerful software!

I have asked that the users of this forum expressed their SUGGESTION (Not DICTAT) to make Blender best... you want to tell me that blender would not be better if it had to take some good idea from others commercial softwares?

softwares which are used for filmses at Hollywood?


If so it was... then the NGONSs on blender will never arrive HAHA...


I will try to explain me last time... very slowly...with some example...


I can Suggest that blender programmers takes some idea from the outliner of Cinema 4D wich is very very better than blender outliner...



This doesn't mean to turn blender into the Cinema 4D interface...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------



The user X of this forum give another SUGGESTION regarding a powerful functionality from Softimege_XSI

The user X of this forum give another SUGGESTION regarding a powerful functionality from Maya

And go on...

I doubt that Blender programmers know all the functionalities of all commercial softwares... then some suggestion could return always useful.

Naturally this not mean that blender programmer must follow these suggestions... so NO dictats.. only SUGGESTION.

Now...if you want to understand me.. well.. otherwise you continue with this petulant and useless polemic.

Bye Bye

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:01 pm

harmonic wrote:I am sorry but you have understood a lot less than 95%...
Really? I guess you're definitely wrong.
First of all... I have never said that blender must be as Cinema or as Maya etc. as a dictat!!!!
No, you didn't, but exposing an attitude of a Cinema4D-fanboy disrespecting other users needs, displaying total ignorance and continuing to argue about it comes very close to that.
And I have never said that blender is not a powerful software!
I haven't read anything that blames you for such a statement. Same with the fact that no one ever claimed Blender to be perfect - a sooner wrong statement of yours besides some other. How comes? That I (Why are you mixing up singular and plural? I can only speak for me.) don't understand or that you don't understand?
you want to tell me that blender would not be better if it had to take some good idea from others commercial softwares?
If you've had read carefully what people have written you would have understood. But seemingly it's lightyears beyond your understanding. Maybe that's only because of some kind of language barrier - but honestly: I doubt it, because even your native posting doesn't show much understanding of what people have written or respect towards others.
If so it was... then the NGONSs on blender will never arrive HAHA...
NGons are not really an UI issue. I like ngons and would like it for Blender, so what? There's even more I'd like to have.
I can Suggest that blender programmers takes some idea from the outliner of Cinema 4D wich is very very better than blender outliner...
*yawns* Yes, drag and drop parenting in the outliner and things like that would be nice and extremly useful. Check Matt Ebb's outliner fun (I think to remember that it was him who did it).

Do you really think that people in here and the developers are totally stupid and are only waiting for your guru wisdom and the Holy Grail in a fortune cookie? If you don't think that then stop acting as you would. Geez!

That's why I told you (several times) to pick out some specific topic and make a proper proposal on it!
This doesn't mean to turn blender into the Cinema 4D interface...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No? Let me quote your first posting:
What G.U.I. (graphical user interface) would you prefer to find in the version 2.5 of blender?

Cinema 4D

Maya

Softimage XSI

Max

Lightwave
Funny, isn't it? I'd say that statement of yours is quite explicit.
then some suggestion could return always useful.
Really? Wow... That would have never come to my mind! And I haven't written anything like that before... :roll:

Then make a suggestion that we can discuss about and stop acting like a smart-ass...

stiv
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Location: 45N 86W

Post by stiv » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:09 pm

harmonic wrote:I am sorry but you have understood a lot less than 95%...

And however those that don't want to understand are you!
You post in Italian on an English language forum and then rudely complain that people do not understand you? How funny!

Please note that the only reason that post did not get deleted is that someone had taken the time to reply to it.

-- moderator

harmonic
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:15 pm

Post by harmonic » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:30 pm

kAinStein... stop to bug me!

In this place good intents are not appreciated.. but doesn't care!!

You exploiting my words... in fact I have also said to add the motivations... not simply SUGGEST a different interface without explaining its merits.

I never pretended to be a guru... in fact I asked that were you to do this thing... not me...

I'm stupid... I apologize.. Because I didn't know that Blender's programmers DON'T need any help from anybody.... In fact by what you tell me they already know perfectly all features of all commercial softwares.. so useless would be suggestions.. for this motive this topic results useless.

You are too much ahead... compliments...

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:26 pm

harmonic wrote:In this place good intents are not appreciated.. but doesn't care!!
There's a nice german saying which says: "The opposite of 'good' are 'good intentions'."

It's no good if you are doing something wrong or in a wrong way regardless what the intentions are. They are just cheap excuses.
You exploiting my words...
That's no exploitation it's simply what you've written. Nothing more. If you don't back up what you preach then you'd better not preach.
in fact I have also said to add the motivations... not simply SUGGEST a different interface without explaining its merits.
If you've had read what I wrote (and what others have written) you'd know what these motivations where. But you mastered to totally ignore what people have written and you totally failed to answer the questions people have asked. The reason seems simple: You didn't expect the answers and can't accept them.

Instead of that you displayed total arrogance by disregarding people's opinions and needs, and pointing other people to a Cinema4D demo and the like - as if they were dumb! If that's a good intention then try to be good somewhere else!
kAinStein wrote:I'd stay with the Blender UI philosophy because it's the most efficient and a quite ergonomic approach to do recurrent work - at least most of the time. Which does not mean that it's perfect the way it is.

EDIT: Oh! And I like the way how you can adapt the zoomable interface to special tasks and store them as different screens. I think it works better than in other applications. Not to speak about how fast and responsive the GUI is compared to others - also a reason why Blender is that tiny!
Now what? Shall we all repeat what we've already written (or what you wrote - as it seems that you just forget your own words) simply because you haven't read and/ or understood it?

What's your motivation anyway in making your "request" or "survey" or which name you'll give it next? Feeling cool while trolling on forums or what?
I never pretended to be a guru... in fact I asked that were you to do this thing... not me...
What?!
You are too much ahead... compliments...
Most probably the devs are way ahead of you and I'd say that you probably misunderstood the whole UI rewrite thing. At least that's my impression... Before posting bullsh*t you should better get an impression what is going to be done and what has already been done but didn't make it into the official code repository. I also point you to Matt Ebb's blog http://mke3.net/ because Matt has tried a lot of UI stuff already (like an improved outliner or configurable interface thingies).

Come back when you know Blender and the background.

harmonic
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:15 pm

Post by harmonic » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:33 pm

Show me your works made with blender... then I'll show you my works made with blender and Cinema4D...

I am curious to see how much you are ahead!

jesterKing
Site Admin
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Location: Finland

Post by jesterKing » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:06 am

harmonic wrote:Show me your works made with blender... then I'll show you my works made with blender and Cinema4D...

I am curious to see how much you are ahead!
I'm sure involved parties can handle this type of discussion over private email.

/Nathan 'another admin' Letwory

tsgfilmwerks
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Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:31 am

Post by tsgfilmwerks » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:56 am

Yeah, this topic has become too personal. (Not that I'm a shining example of impersonal threads...)

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:19 am

First it was abusive (I don't know if people here should be compared with fascists and I don't think that "cocks" in its offensive meaning is speech that should be used on an international public forum) - now it got totally off-topic and really, really childish (actually it is already childish to write something and then trying to distort the statement made to the opposite)... :roll:

At least I've had real fun today (instead of stupid dialogues where you take time to write something and get an answer which is totally distorted - only as provocation, I guess) with a good old ultra-violent hardcore show... Should
have that daily - it's better for my mood...

I'd better stay with sarcasm like others do...

harmonic
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:15 pm

Post by harmonic » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:50 pm

You keep on exploiting my words.

I have not said that you are fascist... I have said that who doesn't respect other people's ideas it is as a fascist...

Other people's ideas could not to be shared but if you tried to impose your own idea as dictat.....


However...I have clearly specified at the beginning that blender is welcome!

I have also written that would be this forum to insert the suggestions... not me...

Despite this after the II° message people asked that this topic was closed...

when there was not a valid motive to do it:This thing has also been confirmed by the moderator.

And you pretend that I stay calm?

If you think to be so good... and you pretend my respect... make me see what you can do with blender.. otherwise.. LOSE me!!!!!!!

jesterKing
Site Admin
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Post by jesterKing » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:18 pm

Locking thread.

/Nathan, the friendly admin.

Locked