Blender GUI is horrible

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

Paint Guy
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Post by Paint Guy » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:44 pm

I guess what it comes down to for me at least, is that Blenders GUI is "Non-traditional" like ZBrushes interface which some translated as difficult to learn. I am not saying Blender is not an excellent application, but IMO the GUI is "non-traditional" and therefore I believe it takes longer to learn coming from a traditional 3D application.

Right after I downloaded the Cinema 4D demo I was able to start modeling. The whole application layout just made sense, (where things were located and their use of icons).

I am not saying that those using Blender have not found Blender to be very intuitive from the start, but it is just my experience coming from Cinema 4D that I find the Blender GUI to be confusing to the point that if I don't use Blender for awhile then it seems alien to me when I use it again. I have not had this experience with Cinema 4D or other 3D applications.

On the upside though, what I do Like about Blender outweighs what I dislike therefore I will continue to struggle to learn the Blender GUI so I can enjoy the other benefits of Blender like it's excellent particle system, sculpting and unwrapping features.

To those who suggest I learn "C" to design the interface, well unfortunately I am far too busy to do that but I am working on some interface ideas that I hope to share once I start to feel more comfortable with Blender.

Thanks :)

stiv
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Post by stiv » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:55 pm

joeri wrote:@stiv:
New creative comments? darn, not my 15 year old responses... mmm...
I'll give it a try.
Heh. We are always happy to hear from an old-skool Blenderhead. Even if he is a cranky Dutchman.

By 'original', I meant something beyond the usual "Waaah, Blender is hard, you guys suck, people should spend their time and energy to make me happy, me Me ME!" theme that these threads usually devolve into.

Your point about creative types and Blender's design is a good one. People forget that Blender came to life as an in-house tool where efficiency and productivity were concerns, not how quickly can a Max user learn new tricks. It was literally designed by the people who used it.

ruslanm
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Post by ruslanm » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:27 am

snifi wrote:
ruslanm wrote: Interface design and coding require radically different skillsets with little or no intersections.
If there is no intersection between interface design and coding, then the interface design will not get implemented. That's because without programming there exists no functional programm. If you want your design ideas to get real, you need to implement them. That is something I'm asking you to do.
First of all, I'm sorry for the tone.
But the point still stands - you're still wrong, it's not my opinion - you can read on ui design, what ui designers actually do and how it relates to coding and see for yourself.

snifi
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Post by snifi » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:25 pm

ruslanm wrote: But the point still stands - you're still wrong, it's not my opinion - you can read on ui design, what ui designers actually do and how it relates to coding and see for yourself.
What does it count if "there somewhere" are books about GUI design, if we don't have anyone to implement the ideas? The framework within Blender is always the OpenGL painting routines. OpenGL routines dictates what is doable, what is fast and what looks nice. Every idea you have, has to be implemented inside the OpenGL framework. (Someone please correct me if I have wrong here.) When you are working with Blender GUI you don't have the "good old" operating system components (buttons, menus, dialogs) to play with.

So, please, show us the ideas you have and how they could be implemented in OpenGL. Personally I'm currently working with a "clickless" OpenGL GUI design intended to learning environments, so it could happen we may have some ideas to share too.

ruslanm
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Post by ruslanm » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:31 pm

snifi wrote: What does it count if "there somewhere" are books about GUI design, if we don't have anyone to implement the ideas? The framework within Blender is always the OpenGL painting routines. OpenGL routines dictates what is doable, what is fast and what looks nice. Every idea you have, has to be implemented inside the OpenGL framework. (Someone please correct me if I have wrong here.) When you are working with Blender GUI you don't have the "good old" operating system components (buttons, menus, dialogs) to play with.

So, please, show us the ideas you have and how they could be implemented in OpenGL. Personally I'm currently working with a "clickless" OpenGL GUI design intended to learning environments, so it could happen we may have some ideas to share too.
You've missed the point unfortunately. Again.
I've only told that coding and interface design are different, that's it. And OpenGL doesn't make it the same... It has nothing to do with it.
Blender does have good-old buttons and menus, last time I checked :) How they implemented is a different issue - you're mixing up design and implementation.
As for my ideas - I dunno. Anything I can think of is already getting implemented in 2.5, so... yeah. I have only idea of making the interface as customizable as possible, but that's too vague and I have no clue how to implement it in OpenGL, so it's as worthless as it gets :)

joeri
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Post by joeri » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:52 pm

On interaction design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3rxCLhzmXY&NR=1

Note how the last topic is Map- or Path-.
And "how does the user get this all in his mind".


Its obviously the "car" here that has a wrong interface:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM8LLp7Q5WQ&NR=1

snifi
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Post by snifi » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:55 pm

ruslanm wrote: You've missed the point unfortunately. Again.
I've only told that coding and interface design are different, that's it. And OpenGL doesn't make it the same... It has nothing to do with it.
Why don't you just shut up?

ruslanm
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Post by ruslanm » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:14 pm

snifi wrote:
ruslanm wrote: You've missed the point unfortunately. Again.
I've only told that coding and interface design are different, that's it. And OpenGL doesn't make it the same... It has nothing to do with it.
Why don't you just shut up?
okay :) didn't mean to upset you, sorry

stiv
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Post by stiv » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:03 pm

snifi wrote:Why don't you just shut up?
Oh, snifi! I'm so disappointed.

This forum is for discussions about Blender development. While we admire brevity, we also want something more in the way of technical argument beyond what one might find on a school playground.

Shall we practice being adults so as not to disappoint your nice Uncle jesterKing? Consider this one of those suggestions that has an "or else" at the end of it.

kd0afk
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Post by kd0afk » Wed May 06, 2009 6:59 pm

pinhead_66 wrote:Tim5,

I suggest you spend $25 and buy yourself a copy of Carrera. You obviously prefer it above blender.

I apologize for my blunt reaction, but posts like this have become very tiresome. The developers ARE working on inproving blender in every possible way. Some things take more time.

If you would have read up on the site and the total of developement that has happened since blender went open source, you would not make such a first post.


Paint Guy,

Blender is a tool. It should be fun to use. If it doesn't fit your needs or workflow, or you constantly fight with it: don't use it.

Cinema 4D is an excellent tool, if you are efficient and it meets your needs, use it.


None of you are apparently aware of the major rewrites that have happened in the past and even less aware of the 2.5 rewrite

And no, a GUI you can't just slap on it like a sticker and call it done. It requires a lot of research and skill.

And ... because others have made mistakes concerning certain GUI paradigms, doesn't mean we have to make the same mistake again.

you know... (jk) i find windows unintuitive. when i press F12 the screen doesn't refresh. when i press TAB i don't go in edit mode so i can change the name of a file. and when i press X things don't delete.. Not to mention that CNTRL-Q doesn't close a window....

but that is just me blendering too much I guess.

Greets
I have used Blender since 1.78 and the GUI hasn't changed for the better in all this time. It still is as unintuitive as ever. The whole theme of your reply is why Blender was way behind on including ray tracking, all of the developers have the same arrogant attitude, ie: if you don't like blender, don't ask for it to get better, just leave. Bad form and not helpfull at all.

jesterKing
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Post by jesterKing » Wed May 06, 2009 8:32 pm

kd0afk wrote:I have used Blender since 1.78 and the GUI hasn't changed for the better in all this time. It still is as unintuitive as ever. The whole theme of your reply is why Blender was way behind on including ray tracking, all of the developers have the same arrogant attitude, ie: if you don't like blender, don't ask for it to get better, just leave. Bad form and not helpfull at all.
I guess you haven't been following the latest development being conducted in the Blender 2.5 branch. Places for self-education:

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/BlenderDev/Blender2.5
https://svn.blender.org/svnroot/bf-blen ... blender2.5
http://www.graphicall.org

and search the internet for Blender 2.5 tours and screencasts (youtube, vimeo, mfoxdogg.com)

/Nathan

jitendra
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Post by jitendra » Wed May 06, 2009 9:13 pm

Hi everyone !

i personally like Blender's interface but just because i like it i can't expect everyone to like it

so

why don't we follow a voting system here:
click this link to see if the blender interface needs a change or not !

http://www.aayaam.com/index.php?option= ... blender-ui

don't forget to cast your vote :D
at www.aayaam.com

snifi
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:39 pm

Post by snifi » Wed May 06, 2009 9:33 pm

I would like to vote for a third alternative:

3. There should be parallel ports of Blender, like Blender QT, Blender GTK or wxBlender, those which would be build over the existing GUI toolkits like QT, GTK or wxWidgets (or something else...)

kd0afk
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Post by kd0afk » Wed May 06, 2009 9:34 pm

jesterKing wrote:
kd0afk wrote:I have used Blender since 1.78 and the GUI hasn't changed for the better in all this time. It still is as unintuitive as ever. The whole theme of your reply is why Blender was way behind on including ray tracking, all of the developers have the same arrogant attitude, ie: if you don't like blender, don't ask for it to get better, just leave. Bad form and not helpfull at all.
I guess you haven't been following the latest development being conducted in the Blender 2.5 branch. Places for self-education:

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/BlenderDev/Blender2.5
https://svn.blender.org/svnroot/bf-blen ... blender2.5
http://www.graphicall.org

and search the internet for Blender 2.5 tours and screencasts (youtube, vimeo, mfoxdogg.com)

/Nathan
The interface hasn't changed though. They might implement something different in 2.5 but unless it changes that huge real estate vampire that takes up the lower 1/3 of the screen then it will always be a lesser graphics program.

jitendra
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Location: india

Post by jitendra » Wed May 06, 2009 9:51 pm

guys ! i think if you argue like this, probably no one would listen or react in a proper manner. why don't you follow the system of concensus. then we'll see if actually there's a need for change in the ui or not !

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