The Big Idea I had Moved to My Site..

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

Post Reply
thorax
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 6:45 am
Contact:

The Big Idea I had Moved to My Site..

Post by thorax »

I'm taking some of Ton's suggestion that I move my big topics
off to my site to free up visual space in the message areas,
and give people the option to read my messages should they choose..

http://www.bl3nder.com/ideas/crafterconcept.html

This one was pertained to use of Crafter in blender, or
use of Crafter's interface style to configure modules in general..
I provide a lot of interesting ideas and go into what
some might consider to "ranting" on the concept
of open source by mechanism.. It will be more interesting
for discussion, obvious by some, theoretical by others,
but still controversial.

The main document deals more with Crafter and the possible
ways it could be applied to a 3D graphics environment. Its
an educated brainstorm.. I mean I know its codeable, and even give
an example of what can be done in smalltalk with an interface,
just to open up a few people's eyes to the virtues of pure object
oriented design and how it will affect the way they use
software. And especially the direction blender could take
toward the unventured future of 3D graphics.. Or user interfaces
in general..

PS- The source code to crafter may not be important as the ideas,
which is primarily what I'm latching onto. I'm associating visual
objects one to one with functional objects (behind the scenes)..
And I believe this visual object style is more possible in a OpenGL
environment than in a pixel based environment (have you ever
wondered why windows are rectangular? and not odd shaped
or round, like everything else? There is no reason for this to
be a concern in a 3D or 2D drawn environment.. So why then
do we continue to use flat 2D blocky looking interfaces? Especially
ones with a static unchangeable configuration?) .. I'm glad
Crafter came along because its step in the right direction,
where the next revolution in user interface design in software
is going. Distributed pluggable environments that make sense
and are attractive.

beatabix
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:12 am

Post by beatabix »

you know, if you didn't try to format your own text by pressing [enter] all the time, you messages would be half as long.

try it now, edit your message and remove all the unneccessary enters. see how much more readable it is?

later
BEAT

thorax
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 6:45 am
Contact:

Post by thorax »

beatabix wrote:you know, if you didn't try to format your own text by pressing [enter] all the time, you messages would be half as long.

try it now, edit your message and remove all the unneccessary enters. see how much more readable it is?

later
BEAT
Are you viewing the webpage on a 640x480 screen, that would explain
the problem you are seeing. But its more a problem with the
software, phpBB guys know zilch about parsing text.. They could have
sensed paragraphs using regular expressions, of course PHP
is not known for its great use of regular expressions..

I use hard returns as a result of years of coding in VI editor and use
of UNIX shells.. Getting my hands to change would be quite hard..
So I suggest if you want to read my text change your screen size.

matt_e
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 4:32 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by matt_e »

thorax wrote: Are you viewing the webpage on a 640x480 screen, that would explain
the problem you are seeing. But its more a problem with the
software, phpBB guys know zilch about parsing text.. They could have
sensed paragraphs using regular expressions, of course PHP
is not known for its great use of regular expressions..
PHPBB doesn't remove linebreaks, because then people who wanted to use them legitimately (for headings and such) would have their formatting all screwed up.
I use hard returns as a result of years of coding in VI editor and use
of UNIX shells.. Getting my hands to change would be quite hard..
So I suggest if you want to read my text change your screen size.
If you want your long posts to stop being completely ignored by people, then perhaps you'd better change your habits.

Timothy
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 3:20 pm
Contact:

Post by Timothy »

thorax wrote:So I suggest if you want to read my text change your screen size.
I doubt anyone actually wants to read your text,

What you say about phpBB makes no sense at all btw, what on earth do you mean with scanning for paragraps with regular expressions (explain this in no more than 2 lines please!).

Normal approach would be to insert newlines (hard returns) when you want to start a new paragraph. phpBB will use php the nl2br function to convert the newlines in <br /> html tags, any other word wrapping should be handled by the viewers browser. Screensize doesn't matter that way, sane people tend to like this approach.

Timothy
Last edited by Timothy on Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

beatabix
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:12 am

Post by beatabix »

thorax wrote:Are you viewing the webpage on a 640x480 screen, that would explain the problem you are seeing.
i'm browsing at 1024*768, but that's irrelevant. The forum is of flexible width, so screen size shouldn't matter, and wouldn't matter if you used proper paragraphs. what if you needed to go back and change something (heaven forbid you should proof-read any of your rants)?

The crux of the matter is, your self-formatted text looks twice as long as it really is, and experience tells most of us here that your long rants are generally waste of time to read. This is a shame, because occasionally you do present some good ideas, which unfortunately are lost in the avalanche of speculation. Try applying a little bit of psychology to your presentation -> how can you make it so people actually want to read it?

first impressions -> people do not see words, they see shapes. if those shapes are not appealing, they ignore them.

later
BEAT

xype
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:36 pm

Post by xype »

thorax wrote: But its more a problem with the software, phpBB guys know zilch about parsing text...


That must be it, yeah. :roll:

You are making a really ignorant impression, Thorax.

fligh
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 11:28 pm
Location: US

Post by fligh »

Thorax, I've come to the conclusion that you can write but not read. You expect everyone to pay attention to what you say yet you refuse to listen to what is being said to you. What's up man?
I must say, to your credit, that it's a relief to hear that you have taken Ton's advice.

%<

thorax
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 6:45 am
Contact:

Post by thorax »

Well I could change my habits, I recognized that by extending doing a carriage return than follwing that with a number of backspaces to re-adjust the text was producing some of the problem. Maybe I was not considering what was being said, but I was also frustrated that I had gone to the trouble to post a message concering the use of Crafter with Blender and I was having the format of my message criticized because of shortcomings of the message board software. Its easier as a programmer to complain about the software than to change ones habits.

I could be considered insane or you could be considered insane,
or I have a difference of opinion and you have a difference of understanding. I could be considerd creative you could be considered as conservative. I blaim the mechanism, you blaim the my habits.. I can see that. But which is easier to change everyone's habits or to change what may be about 10 lines of code..
Last edited by thorax on Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

thorax
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 6:45 am
Contact:

Post by thorax »

beatabix wrote:
thorax wrote:Are you viewing the webpage on a 640x480 screen, that would explain the problem you are seeing.
i'm browsing at 1024*768, but that's irrelevant. The forum is of flexible width, so screen size shouldn't matter, and wouldn't matter if you used proper paragraphs. what if you needed to go back and change something (heaven forbid you should proof-read any of your rants)?

The crux of the matter is, your self-formatted text looks twice as long as it really is, and experience tells most of us here that your long rants are generally waste of time to read. This is a shame, because occasionally you do present some good ideas, which unfortunately are lost in the avalanche of speculation. Try applying a little bit of psychology to your presentation -> how can you make it so people actually want to read it?

first impressions -> people do not see words, they see shapes. if those shapes are not appealing, they ignore them.

later
BEAT
Our eyes see shapes in the periphery, we only actually see what we focus on.. Our brains make up for what we expect.. That's the persistence of vision.. So if you have a tendency to assume my mails are meaningless and make this opinion in a message, what chance is there that your brain filled in the shapes of my mails with what you would expect to see, all
because you didn't take enough time to scan the text with your eyes.

(Note: some syntax and semantic errors in code can be attributed
to this problem with vision.. We have lots of resolution in our eyes but only at the focus, the rest of the eye is sparse receptors that only approximate shapes, and the brain fills it in.. How code suffers from this, is you can imagine not seen a curly bracket or a semicolon, would produce syntax error, but what about seeing a double ampersand where there should be a single, that can mean the difference between a boolean expression and a binary-AND of two bit flags.. Its this kind of dependance of simple yet hard to read to expressions that plague source code, the only way to battle it is to use a object oriented language and reduce the amount of code, reduce the dependence on syntax that reduces but doesn't simplify the task of debugging code, and a focus on reuse.. Its not that you can't make good code in C, its that its easier to make bad code. One of the reasons is for persistence of vision. I did a search on
the net because I wasn't sure if POV is a good descriptor of this problem, but did find a paper on something similar http://psycprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00000666/
Oh it looks liek tis from the devil.. Watchout.. Anyhow, I believe in this theory tremendously because I've at times tested myself by being able to try to name what I think I see out of the edge of my vision.. Its amazing what I find.. It's better to test someone on this in an environment of objects they can't know much about without careful observation, its
interesting to see what observations they would have about the environment.. ).

Thanks for reading my messages and paying attention, you are right, I do tend to ignore what others say, probably because all this time it was a problem with how others saw my message.. I'm now thinking of bugging the phpBB coders to try to get it to show hard carriage returns in the editor.. This is not possible with the current implementation, but with some clever javascript of a applet, it would be possible to show carraige returns in a message when editing it.

Also notice that there is a difference between the size of the text when you edit it and when its displayed, shouldn't it be possible for the user to be able to choose the style sheets of formatting of the messages to their needs independent of the way its stored in the database? This would also be a lacking in the software..

Note that in HTML we have a paragraph tag and we can use codes like &nbsp; to make unbreakable lines with spaces in them. We are still denied this via phpBB which parses the input text out in fear of a possible hack or trick through the web interface intot he backend software.. I know of these hacks myself but there is better ways around hiding the
internals and defending the bbs account from the users without having the users sacrifice their good habits for a poorly designed mechanism.

I figure everyone here has already programmed their hands to not use the carraige return.. I would think this is easier for users than for coders.

But here I am the coder trying to change the world.
I should change some too.. Sorry..

theeth
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 5:47 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by theeth »

Let it go Beat, that's not Thorax's fault, it's the codec in your brain :roll:

Martin
Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans.
- John Lennon

beatabix
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:12 am

Post by beatabix »

you're right thorax, the topic was your essay, not your message formatting.
my apologies.

WRT your proposal. I personally cannot see the benefits of this smalltalk approach, perhaps because i've never tried it. My opinion is that blender's interface is quite well optimised, with each area functioning in a very specific way. I don't see the benefits of taking a well streamlined interface and clutting it up by an interaction method that isn't optimised to the purpose.

a tree like interface is perfect for shader systems and scene graphs, both of which need improvement in blender. perhaps the constraints system and the game engine could be looked at in this area as well.

personally, i don't see how your ideas relate to the current state of blender's development. maybe in a year of two these things will come into consideration.
visionary or delusional, it's all down to your point of view.

thorax
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 6:45 am
Contact:

Post by thorax »

beatabix wrote:you're right thorax, the topic was your essay, not your message formatting.
my apologies.

WRT your proposal. I personally cannot see the benefits of this smalltalk approach, perhaps because i've never tried it. My opinion is that blender's interface is quite well optimised, with each area functioning in a very specific way. I don't see the benefits of taking a well streamlined interface and clutting it up by an interaction method that isn't optimised to the purpose.
Yeah I kinda like the interface the way it is, but a number of things
could be more combinatorial/axiomatic. They were all options, just
different ways at looking at blender.. I see many different ways the interface could go..

I don't think many people knwo what I mean when I say hacking..
Hacking is making plans as you are coding, its about not having a
clear idea but thinking that the future will take care of itself, all I
need to do is get in this one little feature. Design is making plans
before you start coding.

What I'm talking about is design, not hacking or coding..
Its about knowing what you want on yout pizza not
making it.. Coders can make a lot of stupid decisisions
all because they look at about 100 lines of code at a time,
not the arrangement of the code. Nor do they spend much time
usually thinking about the grand design of things, seeing the big
picture.. I'm getting chastised because I choose to think about the big picture and everyone is saying "he man get your own hairthin paintbrush and come here and paint pimples on this portrait of a nose like the rest of us.. " And I'm saying "where is the face, who are your painting,
what's the purpose of painting a nose, etc." Then you say "hey man
I don't see what all the discussion is about, as you can plainly see all we
have to work with is a nose.." And I say "I work with big paint brushes
not small ones.. I could spend a lot less time sketching out the
skin tones and hair color and get the purportions right all in about
10 minutes, then fill in the details with my next small brush, then I
could get the hair thin brush and would be done with the picture.."

However its so much faster when you have many thinking about
this and agreeing on how to do it..




a tree like interface is perfect for shader systems and scene graphs, both of which need improvement in blender. perhaps the constraints system and the game engine could be looked at in this area as well.

personally, i don't see how your ideas relate to the current state of blender's development. maybe in a year of two these things will come into consideration.
visionary or delusional, it's all down to your point of view.
No its down to yours.. I laid it out there to be seen and read,
just influencing public opinion, which is the primary purpose of this.
The more ideas the better..

cessen
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:43 pm

Post by cessen »

If you don't think there is any worth-while content in a post, then why the heck are you replying to it? If you think that Thorax is full of BS, then ignore his posts. Otherwise, please make sure that your replies to his posts actually follow the topic.

thorax
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 6:45 am
Contact:

Post by thorax »

Furthermore they might also note that my messages get read more
than others.. I don't know why this is.. I liked Ingee Bee's post
about fixing the site and only saw like around a 100 or so
during the week, and I will get about 100 in the first day or so..
Either there are a lot of people interested in my post who don't
speak up (I wonder if A/W and Lightwave folks read the messages
in fear that I might stumble on a future technology?) and
the ones who do speak up are usually those who have nothing
to say really, more just to object but without any point or
ideas.. They will tell me I'm wrong but then not backup
what they are saying with proof.. Scoffing is so easy even a baby
could do it.. However if you know where I am wrong tell me,
and you may prove that you are wise..

Post Reply