More tracing, now with refraction!

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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macke
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:57 pm

Post by macke » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:44 am

Cool work, it's a bit slow, but it is infact in its infancy. No raytracer has ever come out fast on the first try.

I can't help but wonder though, is it really that much harder to integrate yafray than it is integrating traces? Seems to me this is all done in vain if it's going to be replaced by yafray sooner or later, no?

Goofster
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 12:26 pm

Post by Goofster » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:34 pm

yafray integration is still in the works. traces is just meant for easy reflections and such, not advanced raytracer stuff.
for that purpose, traces is good enough. if you want photons and such you can use yafray.

Roel

ps. nice to see you around, don't be a stranger :)

macke
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:57 pm

Post by macke » Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:34 pm

Well, I understand that, but it is still seems a bit off to spend time working on something which will never be anything special anyhow. I'd rather work for a smooth integration with the Yafray pipeline instead. Something which in my opinion calls for a total redesign of the blender material system. Materials should be modular, I guess I'm a bit spoiled with XSI and it's render tree ;o)

It's fun work to see being done nevertheless, and I bet that's the very reason Ton did it. For fun =)

Btw, I think photons are cool, but there's a lot that can be done using just regular Monte Carlo tracing still. Or maybe I'm just using the photons wrong, haha ;o)

Ps. I lurk about, nice to see you too goofy. You know how to find me if you ever feel like chatting, so who's really being a stranger, haha? ;oP

slikdigit
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Location: Northampton, MA (US)

Post by slikdigit » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:39 pm

current raytracing implementation extends the current renderer rather than replace it/ act as a total alternative to it; meaning you've still got a scanline renderer, but have the option of adding in a true reflective/refractive object, and some more accurate shadows. Its nice in that it gives you the speed when you need it with the option of raytracing when you need it, on a per light or per material basis. Many other programs have hybrid renderers with the option of rendering to more expensive renderers ( Max is a good example)
It ain't a wasted effort. When Yafray integration happens nothing will change except of ease of use and compatibility with blender materials. Power-users of Yafray will probably still create their shaders externally. Animators will probably still stick with blender scanline- they just have more options now.

macke
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:57 pm

Post by macke » Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:55 pm

Yes, I'm quite aware of how it is implemented. I don't necessarily agree with the way it is, but we all have asses and they are just like opinions. Aren't they, haha? =)

slikdigit
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Location: Northampton, MA (US)

Post by slikdigit » Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:48 am

:lol: I suppose so.... though I think you're just mixing two things together- I agree that a new design of the material interface towards something node based and more flexible would be cool- however I don't think this means abandoning the built in renderer in favor of yafray. Stagnation of the built in renderer isn't going to help yafray integration anyway. Scanline renderers have a way of producing predictable results fast (both tweaking and rendering) and I don't consider them to be somehow inferior to raytracers. just a different tool.
happy holidays btw
:D

shadow
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:33 pm

Post by shadow » Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:20 am

I use Debian with glibc 2.2, but the testing binaries requires glibc 2.3. Can anyone compile it for me :D witht glibc 2.2 dependencies? Or it is impossible?



I want that raytrace. Please help
The box said: "Requires Windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux...

macke
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:57 pm

Post by macke » Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:04 pm

slikdigit: You're misinterpreting me my friend! =)

I'm not saying you should scrap the renderer. What I'm saying is that I don't understand why energy on integrating traces is spent rather than integrating Yafray, considering Yafray's superiority in the matter. By the way, raytracing can be VERY fast. Have a look at mental ray. I'd say it outperforms blenders scanline renderer (not using raytracing) in any scene. But mental ray has also been in development for a long long time. A raytracer is not hard to write, but it's hard to optimize, it requires serious work.

My thoughts on the design of blenders renderer is that it should seperate the scanline and raytracing process alltogether. I think it's a bit weird to, when using raytracing, not trace the first hit. But I'm just a silly swede, you shouldn't pay attention to me =)

Goofster
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 12:26 pm

Post by Goofster » Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:45 pm

macke wrote:slikdigit: You're misinterpreting me my friend! =)

I'm not saying you should scrap the renderer. What I'm saying is that I don't understand why energy on integrating traces is spent rather than integrating Yafray, considering Yafray's superiority in the matter. By the way, raytracing can be VERY fast. Have a look at mental ray. I'd say it outperforms blenders scanline renderer (not using raytracing) in any scene. But mental ray has also been in development for a long long time. A raytracer is not hard to write, but it's hard to optimize, it requires serious work.

My thoughts on the design of blenders renderer is that it should seperate the scanline and raytracing process alltogether. I think it's a bit weird to, when using raytracing, not trace the first hit. But I'm just a silly swede, you shouldn't pay attention to me =)
the developement of traces in blender was done by Ton, the yafray integration is being done by jandro and eeshlo. So i don't see how energy is lost here....

Roel

slikdigit
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Post by slikdigit » Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:16 pm

Aaah I see. I was misinterpreting you, macke. Now you don't sound so "off the wall" to me anymore. :wink:

forcefield
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Post by forcefield » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:36 am

I think the render engines should be modular and offer Traces, Blender and Yafray as plug-ins...

If that is even possible. From what I know of the game development world, they often compile their realtime renderers as Max or Maya plug-ins and can "see" models as they'd appear in the game itself....

You might even see "Quake III" or "Unreal Trounament" as render plug ins..

Eric
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Location: Sweden, Norrköping

Post by Eric » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:48 am

Forcefield: the good thing about traces this time around actually is that it's on the same pipeline as the scanline one and can take advantage of whatever a hybrid renderer has to offer.

A standalone traces doesn't have much functionality in itself.

forcefield
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Post by forcefield » Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:51 am

Maybe I mixed my terms...

What if you were a game development studio and wanted to use Blender. You could A: go into the source and mix in your game renderer's code and fix all the bugs and such the integration would cause (including mapping the materials settings to your renderer's requirements).

Or B: Look at a guide that tells you how to compile the renderer as a library (DLL or whatever) and how to create a document to tell Blender how to translate it's material settings and such to your compilied renderer. When you choose your renderer in the render settings window in blender, it calls the library which holds your render engine, and pow you can see how it will look in your game.

Option B would be more attractive to a studio using a proprietary game engine, or even working on a console game. Also developers out there working on POV-Ray, Yafray, their own renderer can just compile a lib and go... using Blender.

No export scripts, Nothing would be "scrapped" and traces and the scaline renderer would still be available, just the render engine would be more modular...

But what do I know, I don't even know C or looked at the code.

slikdigit
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Location: Northampton, MA (US)

Post by slikdigit » Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:03 am

but the renderers in question (traces/scanline, yafray) aren't for the gameengine- they're for non-interactive content- so I don't think these are what you're going after.

macke
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:57 pm

Post by macke » Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:16 am

Goofster wrote:the developement of traces in blender was done by Ton, the yafray integration is being done by jandro and eeshlo. So i don't see how energy is lost here....

Roel
Oh I see, my bad then. Jandro and eeshlo are both excellent coders, I'm sure their integration will prove to be quite nice!
Last edited by macke on Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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