Major Ton To Ground Control....

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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voidptr
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 2:26 am

Blender is a

Post by voidptr » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:28 am

Maybe we could all use some perspective taken from a much better known GPL project, the Linux kernel. A recent editorial from 'Linux & Main' covers the topic very clearly: The Linux kernel as a periodical publication => http://www.linuxandmain.com/modules.php ... le&sid=278

Blender is in the same boat. Just because you use the software, or can hack the code base not mean you have any right to expect your changes get into the next/current release.

And I'm not saying that because I have anything to do with the 'official' developers. In fact it's the opposite, I keep my own code brach & sync it with 'official' code branch almost everyday.

As to why Linux users are such arogant bastards ... well because that's how we are, speaking for myself of course ;) Linux and arrogance go together like free & beer.

In butchering the words of a good man, "Ask not what Blender can do for you, Ask what you can do for each other." Blender is a community now, not a product. You don't buy support just because you can download the software. You gain a community that will try to help you, if and only if you are willing to help back. Demand and you will be ignored or worse flamed and then ignored :)

And if you don't like how things are being done ... well you are always welcome to start on your own (which would be a sad thing :( ). Virtual space is unlimited, even though you lose resolution as you move away from the origin.

This is not to say we shouldn't hold the powers that be to task. But a little understanding goes a long way.

voidptr

FNG
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Post by FNG » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:45 am

Don't believe anyone has demanded anything. Just putting suggestions forward and getting abuse back. Oh well, i'm a sucker for punishment :wink:
I will help out with the coding once i have the damn thing compiled and have learn't c++ :D Oh, and yeah i do use windows. Not because i believe it is better but it is much easier to do things through Windows for me than it is with Linux. Can't really speak for anyone else though. Oh and because Linux once messed up my dual boot configuration and i've still not recovered from the shock :D

dreamerv3
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:30 am

Post by dreamerv3 » Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:24 am

Hey hold it.....

I haven't "flamed" or "abused" anybody....

I simply made a smart comment about windows users, and how they expect certain things to be done for them.

Now I can understand the talk may have sounded like abuse, but hear me out first...

I used to be a Windows systems Administrator and I thought I was a world of knowledge better than the mac crowd, to me they seemed like a bunch of people merely into computers to serve thier vain or genuinely grounded needs without having to know anything about what they were actually doing...

Like your typical soccer mom (no offense to anybody) or worse socccer dad, taking thier car in to replace the headlights, tailights, or people who call triple A when they have a flat when the replacement is right there in the trunk...

This aversion to doing something anybody can do but most people are either so "programmed" into thier routine or they genuinely are incompetent at using basic hand tools (which begs the question how do they support themselves with such incompetence) that they can't change thier own tire in a matter of 15 minutes and would rather call the wrecker to come pick them up and spend a hour or three waiting by the side of the road...

Then there are those who really get under my skin, the apathetic crowd, you know the ones who don't seem to give a damn one way or the other. (it might be a coping mechanism to handle the variables they can't control in everyday life.) The ones who are pissed off at the fact that they even have to get up and do anything bug the hell out of me...
The people who know how to change the tire but would rather call and wait a few hours rather than get thier hands a bit greasy or dirty...

If everyone was like this, nothing would ever get done.... We'd all still be sitting around a fire in prehistory wondering if life ever got better...

Then I switched to linux (when microsoft released Windows XP) becasue I didn't agree with the eula they had (which I never agreed with yet had no alternative to use). Actually it was thier PC monitoring and "registration" mechanism I was against (Count me out of the microsoft empire) and if any of you read up on the details of how they watch your system for changes, you'de be outraged too... If you value your privacy that is...

But the real outrage and anger I guess comes from the fact that major manufacturers ignore linux users for the most part, (try buying a tablet for linux outside of wacom) it's usually one or two comapnies from each sub-industry in computing who step out and offer a driver, and then they merely dangle it out on the farthest branch from the tree and then ignore it, and consequently they ignore us...

When I switched to linux, it was like going back in time to ten years ago when we were still trying to get our peripherals to work, that was a pain but it was better than being a pawn of M$. Using linux made me realize that no one was going to just step out and hold my hand, this was an OS that works fine, is infinately configurable, and is rock solid, linux doesn't screw up, it's the user that screws up %99 of the time.

So I got off my high horse and realized how much of a hypocrit I had been for berating the mac users when I had been laughing and playing in a gui wonderland manufactured by microsoft, everything I thought I knew was based on a gui template (I fixed other people's problems because I knew which buttons to push, its pathetic...)
There was no engineering, no aproaching a problem from multiple angles or from mutiple points of reference.

All this changed in linux, suddenly I had to run configuration scripts from command lines (which is still in the same think-less league of windows, but slightly an improvement) to determine if I had the right libraries installed, I found myself making sym links and making changes to text files(no not documents but configuration text files, you see what I mean even the word "text file" carries a different meaning in windows) to get my system running the way I wanted. I found that I could manipulate the very bones of my operating system and that it was all laid out in source code form for me to view and to change if I desired.

So I started compiling programs and lots of games and emulators... I even started going into the source code of some of my games and changing the gameplay then recompiling and seeing my changes reflected in the program...

This was a taste of power...

The whole environment of linux is structured in such a way as to force you to get involved in the OS if you want total control, but at other times you can surf the gui of Gnome or KDE and get by just fine, in an environment more beautiful than a mac without knowing any more than a mac user would...

This was freedom...


Then the next thing we hear is how company X made X product so much faster and easier to use for windows users. Windows users who refuse to change thier own tires in a manner of speaking... This makes most of us linux users mad and might seem to make our reference of windows users sound demeaning.


So I apologize if you think linux users are jerks, because we're not trying to be mean.

Most of us aren't trying to make you change yourself to conform to our standards we just want you to wake up from the microsoft coma (I mean that seriously, it is just like being unaware of the world around you and under you feet) that you're trapped in.

There is sooo much knowledge and information available to you if you'd only look for it.
You don't have to be a command line typing linux user, you can do whatever you want, however you want.

I guess the argument could be likened to the loyalists of the current interface of blender, its hard to use for newcomers, but they love it, they grown used to it, and have altered thier behaviour to alter thier speed of interaction with the program.

I guess in a way I'm like the blender user asking the max user to read a few docs before complaining about the interface being so mysterious. But I think linux has so much room for improvement and that some standards compliance could only help the linux world.

They've already punlished the LSB(a way to make one application able to run on different distributions of linux with no changes to the application.) and major vendors are lining up behind it, and thats a step in the right direction.

Just like I argue that blender could benefit greatly from adopting standards...

This thread has veared off course from the topic so to finish, sure I wouldn't mind news either, but comprehensive coverage of minor feature revisions and code cleanup is really best handled in IRC, it really is suited to that, and change logs (however we haven't gotten to that point yet for change logs) so don't run away, come back and get on IRC and ask your questions there I even gave out the serve address and chennels.

I'm sure the developers who know the current codebase are working very hard to make it aproachable for many developers, and it wouldn't hurt to take a peek at the code...

Later

Doogs
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:16 am

Post by Doogs » Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:25 am

ok well my statement was mostly a joke when i said that about linux users but i am not whining, merely requesting info. see above postings. so im an ignorant artist. but i use windows because its already set for me, and i use many of the programs. as said before this is not meant to be some weird flame war, but a request from one speaking for many that we non-coding artists hope to have a bit more of updated info about what blender is developing into , if at all. thanks

-doogs

dreamerv3
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:30 am

Post by dreamerv3 » Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:41 am

Hey Eric,

I think ye might have dropped a lit match on a pile of oily rags with the religion comment.

I'm not saying whether I agree with you or not (disclosing such things would be foolish here)
However one may feel about religion(s), saying they suck in a computing forum is a sure way to get people who weren't even listening to jump in about religion and then the real flames shall dance, and then my friend we have ourselves a hijacked thread....

Lets limit the fighting to computing related topics... Things like...

1.)Prequel

2.)Prequel

3.)Prequel

4.)OS WARS

5.)Microsoft Strikes Back

6.)Return of the Coder

The M$ side:

"Fear is the path to the M$ side, Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads
to Hate, Hate leads to Mircosoft....."

We don't need to fight about religion we have M$ to fight against....

lesly
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 4:45 am

Post by lesly » Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:08 am

Lets not start on religion, Blender takes up enough time already.

:? :? :? :? :? :?

Eric
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:01 pm
Location: Sweden, Norrköping

Post by Eric » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:27 am

dreamerv3 wrote:Hey Eric,

I think ye might have dropped a lit match on a pile of oily rags with the religion comment.

I'm not saying whether I agree with you or not (disclosing such things would be foolish here)
However one may feel about religion(s), saying they suck in a computing forum is a sure way to get people who weren't even listening to jump in about religion and then the real flames shall dance, and then my friend we have ourselves a hijacked thread....

Lets limit the fighting to computing related topics... Things like...

1.)Prequel

2.)Prequel

3.)Prequel

4.)OS WARS

5.)Microsoft Strikes Back

6.)Return of the Coder

The M$ side:

"Fear is the path to the M$ side, Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads
to Hate, Hate leads to Mircosoft....."

We don't need to fight about religion we have M$ to fight against....
Couldn't agree more, thanks!

I think M$ will have one hell of a problem in the future of keeping windows users when the Linux base grow bigger and better, because how can a company compete against something that is free and can't go bankrupt?

_florian_
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:17 am

Post by _florian_ » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:05 pm

Eric wrote:... how can a company compete against something that is free and can't go bankrupt?
i think microsoft is not so stupid to wait until it's too late. software patents are a feasible way to defend open source. they have a lot of patents and they will use them. and don't think microsoft is alone. ibm and others have a lot of software patents.

florian
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alltaken
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Post by alltaken » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:33 pm

i respect linux users (i am thinking of a dual boot machine for my new one) but i also understand the microsoft way of life.

farmers probably hate city folk and say they are ignorant because they think food comes from cans

mechanics hate people who are ignorant and don't think the oil light means anything when it flashes (ok i blew up an engine once but it was cause the oil light was malfunctioning, don't ask!!)

poor people hate spoilt kids because they do not respect how much money is really worth.

and linux users often hate microsoft users because they think they are ignorant about computers.



reall nobody has time to learn everything. some spend it learning linux, some spend it fixing cars, and others spend it making computer chips.

does every linux user know how to make a computer from raw materials.

No only people who choose to know that do.
i choose not to be a doctor, i choose to be ignorant to how my stereo works.

this does not mean i cannot change a tire. it means i don't have time to know everything.

i agree microsoft sucks but only because i dislike their policys on money.

i respect that when it comes to any field of knowledge people may seem SUPERIOR (i know everything and you should try to kinda attitude)

but that is because they have spent time in that field and therefore think if they can everyone can.

i am not aiming this at anyone infact i am trying to calm the nerves.

designers know design, programers know programing, and ton knows blender.

this whole thread is about who knows what!!!
people want to know what is happening ( i don't really care abput the news(things happen when they happen, asking will just make people angry(i know this)))

i think it is good people want to know what is happening i also feel it shouldn't be handed to them on a plate.

but as people have said we are a community now DO YOUR PART.
this is not a one way community. everyone is taking taking taking. including me :( (honestly if i knew what was happening and had a skill that was required such as co-ordinating or somthing i would help)

i think people feel that blender has been taken away and is being raped (don't quote me on that) without their knowledge.

personaly i think everyone who asks the question when are we going to get this, or make the statement i want that now, i want download now, give me a windows compiled version, are eally rude.

ask yourself this "when was blender released to opensource?"
within a few hours people wanted it to be perfect and complete!!!

get real
but also i think news would stop these mindless selfish questions as people would know what was happening at the time.

it takes one person 30mins a day and a text only website to provide news to people.

it is a good idea and would stop people wasting time on posts like I WANT THIS NOW!!!!!

have fun i intended that to calm the nerves but if it raises more i am sorry.
its all just opinion and i hate arguments so just agree with me and it will all be good (jokes everyone should have an opinion) but mine is on both sides in this case.

always put yourself in the shoes of the person you are criticising or asking somthing to. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

ton
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Post by ton » Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:07 pm

Hey hey! Why does a thread with my name in the topic end up in a OS war and M$ bashing? :?

Enough said to that topic, back to work dudes!

Doogs
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:16 am

Post by Doogs » Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:57 pm

Wow I know, and I even warned about it turning into that in my first posting. What a load of crap. I just wanted a little update Ton, and you gave it. Thank you.

doogs

FNG
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Post by FNG » Tue Nov 12, 2002 7:36 pm

I pity the poor people that opened the thread to read it today :D

Feel slightly embarresed that BlenderGod Ton had to intervene to calm us down :oops:

Couldn't agree with everyone more. Each person has their own way of doing things, i'm just glad Blender supports them all. Suppose thats why i started using it in the first place :D

Can't wait to get it compiled though. Just the C++ to learn after that :( Oh well, onwards and upwards as they say 8)

Cheers

FNG

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