New screen from Next gen project

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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eskil
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:42 pm

New screen from Next gen project

Post by eskil »

Hi

I have been working a bit on the first interface for the next generation blender project (as you know the NGB project has one back end app with no interface and multiple front ends, and this is just one of them)

I have (like ton) been busy with a lot of non coder work, I have now registered a company and a am starting to explore ways to fund the Next Gen project, any ideas are appreciated.

I hope it wont be too long before i can release something that you can play with.

Image

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knoxer
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:56 pm

I don't get it

Post by knoxer »

I'm sorry, but I don't get your interface. I think it's a great idea to build blender so it can work with multiple interfaces, but what is this picture showing?

Devas73
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:21 am

Post by Devas73 »

Hi Eskil,
I'd like to give my opinion on your work.
I have looked at the specs of Verse, and it looks like a really nice API for distribution of 3d data along the internet.
I downloaded Loq Airou (is the name correct?sorry I have problems remembering it without checking the spell on your site) - really an impressive app, but probably too much revolutionary.
I mean, a 3d app has to be more "clean" in order to be used professionally - the app seems more like a "modeling video game" - and on my old K6-2 350Mhz it's slooow while blender is a snap.
On my Athlon 1GHz the situation is much better, but it's a pity to have too much CPU cycles wasted on cool effects when the aim is modeling.
The cool effects have to be generated in the final production, or previews (real time engine, animations) - not during the modeling work.
I hope not to offend you, but I think that your genius shoud be directed on contributing to Blender, and on a second effort, creating a plugin for "distributed modeling" that uses Verse (I have problems visualizing two people working on the same model though - maybe on the same scene, with an "object locking feature" so that team members can see each other changes in the global scene but noone can modify an object already "aquired" by someone else).
Another application of Verse could be in the real time engine, for network enabled games.
I would not spend too much effort on creating another modeling aplication from scratch though, it would be a pity to have such a talented man like you directed to another project...
This is just my opinion, I hope not to have offended you and your work...
Cheers,

Filippo

eskil
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:42 pm

Post by eskil »

knoxer:

Well I don't get it either... The app you see the screen from is a app that allows you to see the data in a schematic view and set up dependencies between different data nodes. Since this screen was taken (this morning) i have added some more graphics and the theme for this app will ba "outer space" I will get a new screen up tomorrow.

Devas73:

on verse:
thanks!

on Loq Airou performance:
You can make it a lot faster by taking down the settings, open the config.cfg and set MAX_TESS_LEVEL to 1 or 2.

on Loq Airou FX:
you can turn them off, but i like them! and they give good feedback.

on the uses of verse:
One of the main uses is to make multiple apps work together. Different apps can have different users, uses interfaces and approaches, but they all work together like one. Loq Airou is just one of many apps, the app above is the another one but many more will hopefully follow.

E

green
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:04 pm

Post by green »

What is the end goal of this?
Are you creating a replacement for blender from the ground up?

If so what relation does this actually have to blender?
In the screenshot I cant see a single thing that reasembles anything that blender stands for.
Neather have I seen any such thing in any of your other projects.

So I havto ask you, are you creating a new blender from the ground up?
If you are then it probibly wont be blender at all. It will be another product. Sortof takes the whole fun out of the thing.

I think you should try and make the current codebase better instead.

Krabat
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:03 pm

curious i am....

Post by Krabat »

haven't yet tried your NGB yet (am on my way downloading it), but just to judge from the screenshots on www.quelsolaar.com it seems it does have some similarity with blender. it looks like a blender-mesh with a subsurfed mesh shining partly through. and does look stylish. no idea if i can work with it though, we'll see....

Krabat

eskil
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:42 pm

Post by eskil »

Green:

Yes, the plan is to make an entirely new app. The project was started when Ton talked to me if i was interested in working one a completely new app (since blender is getting old). And I said yes and started outlining how such a app would work. Then I did a presentation at the Blender conference about it and got a good response. Since Ton and the bender community has so much to do at the moment, I was asked to continue my work alone for now. My current goal is to create something that is useful that people can start playing with, then we can come to a point where more people can be attached to the project and some day be adopted as the official future of the Blender foundation.

So right now we I am in a Research / development phase. And I encourage other so start their own projects and to communicate with me about what they would like the future app to contain.

Krabat:

The NGB zip on the site is fairly useless it is a prototype that i used at my talk at the blender conf and i put it up on line more and an act of good faith the for any one to actually use it.

here is todays new screen:

Image

E

green
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:04 pm

Post by green »

Okie.
You seam to be using a 3d like display to organize data there. I have never seen a 3d data organization that works better then a 2d one with optional depth sorting. Think you can get that to work better then for example a normal 2d list with icons? If so. What advantages does it offer?

Krabat
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:03 pm

loq_airou

Post by Krabat »

just played around with loq_airou, IMO it is a revolutionary concept, i really like it! would be cool if Blender3.x would look and feel like this....

*bow*
Krabat

eskil
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:42 pm

Post by eskil »

green:

Well it will all be drawn with openGL (it makes everything 3D), you can zoom and pan, but its not true 3d,. I wouldn't want to have a schematic view where you cant find your nodes because they are behind you....

Krabat:

Thank you, I will do my best.

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alltaken
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:08 am

Post by alltaken »

as i understand it so far (which isn't very far at all right now)

these are concepts for Blender 3.0

now personaly i wouldn't want to re-learn blender iif i had to i would rather learn maya or somthing.

i like people coming up with ideas that are complete (like you are) and are thought of by a single person all the way through.

but i like the idea of lots of people doing similar things and then combining the best of all the parts.

OPEN GL very important

rebuild from ground up very important

total redesign of the interface not very important

i think a blender 3.0 really needs to be a completely new program from ground up. but i also feel it has to be rather similar in feel to the current, even if you do add many more features

don't get me wrong i am not trying to be one of those guys that is afraid of change and hates it when someone comes up with a scary idea.

i think crazy cutting edge ideas help get the blood flowing in others minds as well (stimulate the imaginations of the masses).

but i think a product with the blender name should really reflect the users opinions of it.

i like your initative and wish i had the time to go through all my ideas for a new blender and put them into a concept form as you have done.
I may still do it sometime just because i want to feel like i have contributed to the community (currently it feels like ton and friends are excluding the users a bit and that we have no input into the blender design).

i think everyone should work on it but i also think that individual concepts are very important (i don't like your concept (sorry)but that is because i don't understand it yet.) some of the functionality may be very usefull)

see ya and i hope to see more development of the concept as it is interesting. :D

eskil
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:42 pm

Post by eskil »

I don't like to call it blender 3.0, for now we just call it Next Gen Blender, In the end it will most likely be called something else. a version of old blender called 3.0 will most likely be out before this project becomes 1.0.

Hopefully, you will want to learn NextGen Blender in the end rather then Maya ;-). But as an artist I must recommend learning as may apps as possible, learning Maya, Max LW or XSI will make you a better Blender user.

I am a OpenGL ARB participant so when im not working on Blender Im developing OpenGL 2.0

The interfaces will be completely plug abel so it can look and feel just like old Blender or like something completely different.

Don't be mad at Ton and the guys for not developing blender very fast at the moment. I think they would listen very much to your and the community's ideas, if they had time to do so. It is unbelievable how much work they have with web pages, CVS, paperwork, donations, legal stuff, make files and porting to the new physics system.

If you or any one else have ideas dump them on me!

I know I have a big problem with communicating my ideas and verse, trying Loq Airou usually helps, but this is why I hope to have something out that you can all play with yourself and to experiment with and figure out.

E

Krabat
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:03 pm

Post by Krabat »

hoi eskil,

still have to practice a little with loq_airou, but i may be able to comment a few things...

- the effects in the gui used are awesom and helpfull, an edge dusting away or be highlighted be a red glow if you choose to delete something makes sense. and some things are more irritating, for example this great flash with this colourfull hexagons (?) in it..... well, i guess i'll find out what it means soon. nevertheless the eyecandy let my bosses jaw drop down real low *g*

- the way to handle meshes free floating in 3d space without even have to worry about the orientation of the object is quite usefull, no more worrying about rotating the view and try to get an edge planar.

- i would appreciate keys being used, too. they are quicker to handle and less fuzzy... one of the reasons i love blender for btw. an application with the quick usage of keys and your style of mouse-control is a killer.

- when i took a look at quel solaar i noticed that text really gets unreadable at a certain distanz or angle due to aliasing and that changing the resolution make white planes appear instead of text (bug? *shrug* bwt. W2k on 1280x1024)

- the plugabel interface is a great idea!

after looking at your work i discovered this verse-thingie... where can i get further info on it? sounds interesting....

Krabat

p.s.: anyone stumbling across this thread and does not really know what to think about eskil's ideas should just download loq_airou (<1MB) and the manual (660KB) at www.quelsolaar.com. IMHO it's an eyopener, strange at first, but -honestly- if you've gotten into blender there should be no problem ;-)

eskil
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:42 pm

Post by eskil »

I know the flash can be a bit too big..

Keys, yea but for what? Everything is already available with one click.

Quel Solaar has not been updated for about a year, the new text code is a lot better. At the moment no one is using verse so having a verse browser isn't a high priority but i will get around to it.

the verse site is at : http://verse.sf.net

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IngieBee
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by IngieBee »

Hi Eskil,
I have to say I find the type of font you are using very difficult to read, and the second schematic is impossible to read here, so I’m in the dark about them, so sorry. However, I love your ideas. You once agreed with me, that Virtual reality is one of the things you see this going to. I love this idea the most.

Imagine, if you can, a virtual reality “world” where you can influence your environment. A 3d game where you can build an object with a friend, give it attributes, and blow the other guys away with your creation? Or better still, be able to inflict change on objects or others around you. Such as a sword fight where you can inflict real damage, not pre-animated damage, but damage according to where your sword just landed and cut. I can see this system being able to do that.

The real eventual function of this program, to me, is this kind of thing. Not that co-modeling wouldn’t be interesting, I just don’t see it being feasible. Mostly because 3d modeling requires you to trick your eye into understanding what it sees in 2d, in 3d. For me, it requires me to move the model a little bit all the time to re-orientated myself to what I’m looking at. If the other person has to do that all the time, then we’ll have nothing but trouble (and we’ll get on each other’s nerves)

It might work out better with 3d glasses, which may not require such trickery, and the consequence of having to readjust the eyes. But I’ve never tried them before???

Anyway, I don’t see the need to get worried over Blender’s GUI here. This is the section of the foundation that shouldn’t see any limits on ideas. It would be healthier for this laboratory to embrace every idea, and judge it on it’s own merit. How Blender as we know it folds into the scheme will eventually happen naturally. in fact, we should be mixing in Blender as we go along, and this all becomes more “solid”. Don’t limit your minds here. This is not the place to hold on to favorites, it’s a place to try new things.

Now, I would like to ask again, if anyone who can do anything about it, will hear; Can we please have a separate forum just for next generation blender? So I don’t have to come upon these notes by accident, when it’s something I’d really like to follow? ( Errrr, um, and others as well?)

Oh, and Eskil, could you please explain the schematics? I honestly don’t get it? And of course I want to get it, I really appreciate the work you’re putting into this, it’s gonna be so cool! I just know it… but er… I’d like to understand what you’re trying to say there.

Thanks so much, Ingie

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