Muse RenderMan compliant with Blender

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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gendou
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Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 7:57 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN

high hopes, low expectations

Post by gendou »

Pixelbox, since you're posting on this board i'm going to make a suggestion. You should examine the reason for posting here, the goals you have and the impact you could have on blender and this community.

My suggestion:

You are in early development of another renderman type render engine and you are posting an announcement about it here on blender.org. If you want to REALLY make a difference in this and the general CG community, you should take your knowledge of programming and the renderman interface combined with an existing renderman-compliant engine (aqsis, pixie, 3delight, bmrt) and build a SOLID bridge between one engine and blender. Hammer out a transfer system for (at minimum) blender's shaders, the camera, animation, render settings (dof, motion blur, displacement, anit-aliasing, etc) and so on. This bridge would be SO appreciated by the blender community and your contribution would impact everyone. Once that is done, take the credit for it, and resume work on Muse, refining it to be a production-level network render engine that could be the backbone of a blender powered pipeline.

That's it. For what it's worth I'd like to think that you might consider it but i have my doubts. All the renderman renderers be damned, none of them are useful to us without the bridge. Someone has to build it. Are you ready for the challenge?

-G

pixelbox
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

Hello gendou. My main purpose is to develop a good and stable RenderMan compliant renderer. I am sorry, but I will not work in a bridge between Blender and the others renderers that you specified. I intend to provide that bridge between Blender and Muse. Only. I am ready for the challenge of creating a good bridge between Blender and a RenderMan compliant, in this case Muse. I know that it will have impact, and I know that Blender users are asking for that. But you already have BlenderMan. So, just give me some time and you will see what Blender and Muse can do together.

Bellorum
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum »

Just wanted to drop in and show my enthusiasm for this project, I'm looking forward to playing around with Muse:)
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

pixelbox
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

Thank you for the support Bellorum. I am also looking forward to see what images will be created with Muse.

gendou
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Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 7:57 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Post by gendou »

heh heh, not to be rude, but i think you're missing the point. now, you also contradicted yourself in your response to my reply. you said:

"I am sorry, but I will not work in a bridge between Blender and the others renderers that you specified."

now, in the very next sentence you said:
"I intend to provide that bridge between Blender and Muse. Only. I am ready for the challenge of creating a good bridge between Blender and a RenderMan compliant, in this case Muse."

two different and opposite statements. now, if you've done your homework, you'll see that there are NO complete .rib exporters for blender. If you want people (blender users) to actually USE Muse, i suggest focusing on getting that export (including shaders and animation) working and stable. People will praise you for months. If you're not willing to work on that exporter, it's a little pointless to plug Muse on any blender forum.

-G

lucky3
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:08 pm

Post by lucky3 »

Hi pixelbox!
Like the others, i'm glad to follow your great project!

Gendou, I think you misunderstood him. He just said he'll build a bridge between his renderer Muse and Blender. He's not involved with any other projects or renderers (Pixelbox correct me if i'm wrong...)

-efbie-
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Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:47 pm

Post by -efbie- »

If he wants to make a renderman compliant renderer that work on blender, he will need a renderman exporter for blender. What's the point in making a renderman exporter 'only for Muse' ???
He will have to make a renderman exporter one day or another. So why not starting with this, since it will help others projects too....

Pablosbrain
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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:39 pm

Post by Pablosbrain »

Making an export for Muse will make a renderman connection... specifically in this case for Muse. Thats not to say that it can't grow to encompass other renderman compliant renderers later. But also... Muse may add some functionality or features that aren't renderman specific and would require its own additions to the renderman specification. Looking forward to it all!

pixelbox
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

I'm glad that lucky3 and Pablosbrain have been able to see my point. I am not involved in the development of any other renderers. Muse will feature some specifications of his own that that are not available in the other renderers that are refered. Gendou, I think that you are the one who is missing the point. I have no contradict myself. I said that I will not work in a bridge between Blender and the others renderers, but between Blender and Muse. I have come to this forum asking what Blender users want in a RenderMan compliant renderer because I believe that this community will help Muse grow, and I also want to provide a good and stable renderer for Blender users. The other projects have their own developers. Right now, I am only focused in Muse, and is Muse that I want to see grow.

gendou
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Location: Indianapolis, IN

Post by gendou »

apparently i misunderstood. i hope that i'm wrong and you can create that bridge that will benefit us all tremendously!

so you asked what blender users wanted to see, so this is what i would like to see as a minimum:

1) transfer of all blender materials used in the scene to Muse readable shaders/materials.

2) support for rendering animation to an image sequence (img0001.tga, img0002.tga, etc)

3) support (toggle on/off button would be nice) for rendering in passes (diffuse, specular, shadow, reflection, ambient, zbufer [depth], etc). in theis feature, the ability (if turned on) to check or uncheck which passes will be rendered so i could render say, just the reflection pass or just the shadow pass, or i need to rerender the diffuse, ambient, specular and reflection passes but not the shadows or depth pass. pass rendering would (of course) need to have the option to render to image sequences (dif0001.tga, dif002.tga or zbf001.tga, zbf002.tga or spc001.tga, etc). i think that blender users would be ecstatic for these few features.

later on, support for particles, curves and nurbs surfaces would be nice. things like displacement and renderman-specific shaders would be nice, but not necessary at this early stage.

Are these comments more what you were looking for? Were they helpful? I try to explain in enough detail what I'm interested in seeing.

good luck.

-G

Zarf
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:54 am

Post by Zarf »

bertram wrote:How did you come up with the name "Muse"? What does it mean and what does it stand for.
By the way the name Muse is not very unique. You're likely to associale quite a lot of other projects with it...

I find it at once humorous and also outrageous that this objection would be raised in a forum dedicated to a 3d suite named 'Blender'.

Muse is a fine name, get over it :roll:

pixelbox
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

Gendou, all the comments are apreciated. I am not looking for any comment in specific, but I only want that Blender users tell me what characteristics they want to see implemented in Muse. Zarf, I also think that Muse is a fine name :D .

Zarf
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:54 am

Post by Zarf »

pixelbox wrote:Gendou, all the comments are apreciated. I am not looking for any comment in specific, but I only want that Blender users tell me what characteristics they want to see implemented in Muse. Zarf, I also think that Muse is a fine name :D .
My 2cents about what I would like to see.

Seamless integration.

It's pretty much as simple as that, however it is done I feel it should be completley transparent.

Also it would be nice if you could just stick renderman shaders in a directory and their properties are automatically read by blender. The shaders would then replace some of blenders native settings in the render buttons.

Looking forward to seeing how muse works out. Whats your projected timeline for the project, such as when the first milestone is scheduled and what it will entail?

Cheers,
Zarf

pixelbox
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

Hello Zarf. Thank you for your 2cents in this subject.
Muse will be a robust renderer, and the rendering quality will be the main characteristic of Muse. That's why I have decided not to release Muse untill it can be alredy capable of producing images with a good quality standard. I cannot give you a precise release date, but I count to release it in the next 6 months. Besides the standards stated in RenderMan Specification, Muse will feature some characteristics that I believe will have a strong impact in the world of free RenderMan compliant renderers. I am sorry, but for now I cannot go deep about this subject, as you should understand.

joeri
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Contact:

Post by joeri »

forgive me my stupidity:
How is Muse renderman compliant if it can't read .rib files?
Or is it going to read .rib files and .blendrib files?

Any connection to a good/fast renderer is a plus I think.
And OpenEXR will put the blender renderer on the shelf for me.

So when can we expect the first beta-download?

zarf: blender is called blender because it blends, right? I hope Muse is not called muse because it's to darn slow.

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