Muse RenderMan compliant with Blender

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox »

Joeri, now you have make me confuse :shock: . Where have you read that Muse can't read Rib files? Rib is the files that Muse will read. Muse implements all of the RenderMan API calls and RIB requests.
Concerning OpenEXR, I think that you can already see something about that subject at Muse website http://rmuse.sourceforge.net .
As I have said before, I cannot give any date in detail right now. As soon as it will be available for download, the Muse website will notify that.
The reason why Muse is called Muse is explained in a earlier post.

joeri
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Post by joeri »

Sorry about being confussing.
I think it's good if blender can render with a renderman renderer.

But if it reads .rib files, why not make blender write .rib files?
Or how will the data go from blender to the renderer, in a .bru file ;)

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox »

The way to process data between Blender and Muse is still in development. There are several ways to do that. Seamless integration with Blender is a possibility. Another one is providing a bridge ( such as Liquid does with Maya ) allowing you to output to Muse.

macouno
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Post by macouno »

The way I see it and I know there's more like me: Personally I can't be bothered with installing yafray and integrating it and then fiddling with it to get it to work.

The way to have an impact is to really seamlessly integrate it. Which the way I see it would mean having a "muse" button in blender's render window... you hit it and it renders.... no export/import of .rib files. That's just too messy. The blender internal renderer is really coming of age... and the only reason I'd install a secondary renderer would be if the quality were a lot better whilst it's basicly as easy to use as the internal renderer.

There is a need for a better renderer next to yafray and the internal renderer, but the integration would have to be nearly complete to really have an impact.

I like the way your project sounds... hope you'll make it happen.

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox »

Hello macouno. Seamless integration is a good way to process the data, but there's only one thing stuck in the middle. Muse in not a renderer only for Blender. Muse is a renderer aimed to all the software capable to export .rib files. But, as I said before, seamless integration is not something that should be put apart by now.

SamAdam
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Post by SamAdam »

the only problem with your approach is that there are so many free renderman renderers out there that yours would get lost in the pile. What he means is that if you integrate it fully into Blender you will get all of Blender, if not, blender users will stick with internal and yafray, and maybe some other people will use it from another program.
But the thing is that blender is the biggest free modelling program, and anyone who buys a package will have a render that is integrated and better than yours (like mentalray)

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox »

Well, SamAdam I have to say that I disagree with you. I do not see the problem if Muse is not fully integrated in Blender. With the mainstream software, the same happens with PRMan ( with the exception of the forthcoming PRMan for Maya ). RenderMan is not integrated in the software. The bridge has to be provided with apps like Liquid, MTOR, RhinoMan, MaxMan and so on... I do not think that Blender users are more lazy than the users of others modelling software :roll: . As I have said before, Muse is not destinated only for Blender. There are so many free RenderMan renderers? Well, there are a few, not many. Muse will not get lost in the pile, due to the characteristics that will feature. And I have to say, don´t judge things before you see them. MentalRay is a very good renderer, but it´s miles away from what a good RenderMan complinant can do.

Bellorum
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Post by Bellorum »

I think we should just be grateful that pixelbox considers making a bridge to Blender. So let's leave it at that, before he grows weary of us, and decides to not include Blender in his plans at all :wink:
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

lucky3
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Post by lucky3 »

You're right Bellorum. Just wait and see!
To my mind, a bridge like yafray would be just perfect.

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox »

Bellorum wrote:I think we should just be grateful that pixelbox considers making a bridge to Blender. So let's leave it at that, before he grows weary of us, and decides to not include Blender in his plans at all :wink:
:D I can assure you that will not happen. The reason why I want to provide a good relation between Muse and Blender is because I believe in the strong potential of Blender. And, I also believe in the strong features of Muse, like support for OpenEXR. And, with the ray-tracing features, more surprises are just aroun the corner.

birras
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Post by birras »

the better question is: what can muse do? its not ready yet. muse didnt render a single frame yet and you ask us what futures we would like to see in a renderman renderer?

my answer: give us all its got.

the other question is how can it be integrated?

full integration, meaning compiling/converting blender-shaders on the fly into, in this case muse shaders.
that would work more or less ,like the new pixar PRman4maya, which does just that, using directly maya-scene descriptions and convert its shaders .
but that is also quite limited and does not free the real power of an renderman renderer.

for most, this would be nice to see. id like to see another external render option, I really would.

so you going to finish the code for muse, while you simultaniously work on a blender export? wow!! thumps up!!


but then again you come to the blender development forum
writing things like:
pixelbox wrote:Ok, It´s all fine bertram :) . I am just a little bit tired of what some people are writing about Muse. Things like: " There is no point in another GPL RenderMan compliant "; " Why another Open Source Renderer "; " It will never be released "... and that sort of things. They even complain because they havent seen a single line of code :shock: . For all the people that write this about Muse and call my Academy of things like " stupid idea ", I just have one thing to say: I intend to deal and work with professionals. So kids, play with your toys.
Blender users are very important to the development of Muse, since I whant to provide a close integration of Blender with Muse.
now my question is:
is there a point in another open source renderer? I think the question is quite o.k. in my p.o.v. , but anyway, if your philosophy is a little different to others, thats just fine with me.


I know that the aqsis team worked on a seamless renderman compliant integration into blender, doing the above mentioned: converting blender-shaders into aqsis shaders. its an ongoing project which is integrated in the tuhopoo-tree, but has to be rewritten from scratch, as some changes made this effort obsolete.

so we have one guy over there and another over here, doing or aiming to do exactly the same :!:
but thats just my point of view. if in the end of the day your project comes along fine, thats all right with me. if muse will provide support for blender (or vice versa) and you write the necessary code for that : thumps up.

as for today we havent seen muse in action and I doubt that writing a renderman renderer from scratch is an easy task, but hey, go right ahead.

I would like to see a powerfull open source renderman -compliant render-engine, just as I would like to see a powerfull blender 3d -suite.

so: my question again: what can muse do and when will the first pre-alpha for testing be downloadable? in 6 month? well, this discussion can be unfolded then.

hope that this does not sound to harsh. the ideal would be if we could make blender write renderman shaders within blender, integrating a complete new window/function as it is possible within houdini for example. this new function should work just as shrimp or the tool (aka shaderman) and these shaders can than be assigned to the objects, plus the possibility to assign a custom shader from file. that would deffinately be nice.

unfortunately ppl like goran, green and jan have abandoned the idea of further developing a .rib exporter.
the ideal would be if these guys, paul + others from aqsis and yourself would stick your heads together and work something out. together. something like a kick a** exporter completely integrated as a native blender function, where you can select your prefered render engine and have your shaders for your renderer compiled on the fly, assign them and hit the renderbutton.

:roll:
Last edited by birras on Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox »

Ok, let's start.

I am asking Blender users what features they want to see in a RenderMan compliant PRECISELLY because Muse it's in a early stage of production. The Muse features are being written in this stage.
Concerning what Muse can do ( or will be able to do ), I must redirect you to Muse website.

Concerning the integration with Blender, the two solutions are up the table.

I am not the only one working in Muse. There are another members at Muse core team with a CV related with computer rendering simply outstanding. So, I am not the only one dealing with Muse development and a future Blender connection.

The question if there is a point in another Open Source project... Personally, I have to say that after I have reading some things in the last times, some people are not fully aware of what Open Source means.
Open Source projects are done for a number of reasons. First, let me citate a quote from intel.com concerning Open source:

" When the source code of a computer program is made available free of charge to the general public, it's known as open source. The basis of open source software is to produce more useful and bug-free products for everyone to use. The concept relies on peer review to find and eliminate bugs in the program code, a process which commercially developed and packaged programs do not utilize. The Open Source Initiative (OSI) reviews then certifies open source programs. They have a stringent list of criteria that include making sure no one collects a royalty on the software and no person, group or field of endeavor can be denied access to the program. "

In any definition of Open Source, you will never find a phrase saying that cannot be more than one project dealing around the same subject.
Just a HUGE example: all the Linux distributions that exists nowadays. Whe can have Red Hat. Sho why Mandrake? And Slackware? And SuSe? And Gentoo?

The Muse project it's being developed independantly of each other renderers.

Concerning Aqsis... I can't understand why Aqsis users are so upset with Muse...
There's not one guy at Aqsis and another one at Muse doing the same.
Muse will be substantially different than Aqsis. I intend to provide the bridge with Blender. Aqsis team intentions are not my concern.

I know you haven't seen Muse in action, that's why it haven't be released yet.
Concerning the pre-alpha release, 6 months is the date that whe have right now.

And for finish, this discussion was not started because of the release of Muse. This discussion was started so that I can receive feedback from Blender users about what they want to see in a RenderMan compliant renderer.

gendou
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Post by gendou »

This discussion was started so that I can receive feedback from Blender users about what they want to see in a RenderMan compliant renderer.
Seamless intergration with blender. That's what blender users want. If you can't deliver that or don't plan to, then dicussing it here is a waste of your and our time. Sorry to be so harsh, but you really don't listen to other people's "feedback". If you want Muse to be used and be successful, start listening.

Bellorum
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Post by Bellorum »

Seamless intergration with blender. That's what blender users want. If you can't deliver that or don't plan to, then dicussing it here is a waste of your and our time. Sorry to be so harsh, but you really don't listen to other people's "feedback". If you want Muse to be used and be successful, start listening.
I can't believe what I'm hearing here. This guy has no obligation whatsoever to make this available to Blender-users. As far as listening to people's feedback, it's one thing to listen to, and another to guarantee that you will get what you want. Go sit in the corner, and be ashamed of yourself :evil:
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

pgregory
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Post by pgregory »

pixelbox wrote: Concerning Aqsis... I can't understand why Aqsis users are so upset with Muse...
There's not one guy at Aqsis and another one at Muse doing the same.
Muse will be substantially different than Aqsis. I intend to provide the bridge with Blender. Aqsis team intentions are not my concern.
I haven't seen any Aqsis users claim to be upset with Muse. There are a lot of people that can't understand the point of having a huge number of competing OS renderman implementations, amongst them some Aqsis users, but also some Pixie users and some 3Delight users.

You have said a number of times that Muse will be "substantially" different to <fill in your choice of OS Renderman renderer, usually Aqsis for some reason>, but have never substantiated that comment further. In fact, the Muse site gives no real indication that it will be significantly different to any other OS Renderman renderer, the list of features doesn't look any different.

This is precisely what is leading people to ask why another one, but those people are not necessarily Aqsis users, so you shouldn't label them as so, they are just sensible inquisitive people who want to understand your reasoning, me included.

Cheers

PaulG

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