Muse RenderMan compliant with Blender

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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harkyman
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Post by harkyman » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:25 pm

I read it. Note that I did not say that you were claiming that Mr. Catmull was on your team. I said that I found it strange that you mention so many people behind Renderman in the docs for your project. It's a fine point, and maybe it's an English-as-a-second-language thing, I find it odd that a third of your documentation is devoted to a name list of Renderman luminaries. I'm not saying you're claiming they're on your team, just that you are gratuitously name-dropping.

Also, my gender inprecision regarding Ms. Valenty is irrelevant, as I do not feel that gender affects an individuals programming skills. Her CV is available on her own website in English, so there is no reason to be snooty and post it here, clearly an English-based forum, in French. I read it before I made my first post. Lots of signal processing and video compression stuff. That's great, but it's not 3D graphics and rendering. She may be a fine graphics programmer, but to point to her CV which does not show this seems kind of pointless. You seem to be a big fan of gratuitous, irrelavant quotes.

In addition, I wasn't demanding that you give us your developer list. I was suggesting that a way to alleviate hostility here would be to give some concrete factual info, such as some names of the people involved with the project.

You still have yet to give us anything to differentiate yourself from the pack of people who breeze throuh here from time to time with lots of ambition and attitude, but little follow-through. The standard model for projects of goes like this: make working prototype on your own or with a small team. Make something to show to the world. Announce it with a website/publicity, and start asking for help/suggestions. Projects that seem to start with a wish and a website make me suspicious.

And yes, it is implicity obvious that you have a credibility problem on this forum. It was not an accusation, but a statement of fact for your edification so that you could address said deficit if you wanted more and better input for your project from the Blender community.

As I said before, please prove me wrong, by doing what you claim you are going to do. I would love to see a great, complete, Open Source Renderman compliant renderer, whether it's written with Blender users in mind or not.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:55 pm

I can't help to feel the same.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:09 pm

pixelbox wrote:...Why? Just READ!!! ...
Why the need to copy the internet to your site?
Just a link is enough; the who are on the original renderman dev list is of very little interest for the mule renderer that still renders nothing.

I think it's pretty clear what blender users want from a renderer.
And since you want it to be renderman complaint there is work enough before blender user/dev can add their little features.
pixelbox wrote:if Blender users are not interested, then so be it.
Hmmm. That's going a bit hard to find out on this forum, since it's a developers forum...
pixelbox wrote:I am not willing to spend my time working in something for people that don´t deserve it.
I'm guessing you are talking about spending time on the non existing bridge for the non existing software.

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox » Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:33 pm

joeri wrote: I'm guessing you are talking about spending time on the non existing bridge for the non existing software.
Well, as you said before this is a forum for developers. If you are a developer, then you should know that anything before being release must be programmed. That takes time, you know? A lot of time.
harkyman wrote: And yes, it is implicity obvious that you have a credibility problem on this forum.
Well, the concerns in my life are not about credibility in this forum. If in here I don't have credibility, you can be sure that in a lot of places I have.

With this, I am leaving Blender.org forums. You can be sure that you will hear a lot about Muse. Best wishes to Blender developers.

Renderwoman
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Post by Renderwoman » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:38 pm

::::::::::: Part in French sorry :::::::::

Salut Pixelbox, (j'me permet de te tutoyer :) )

Il semble que tu te sois mal fait comprendre et vice versa.
Les critiques faites à ton approche sont justifiées, désolé sauf biensûr sur celle à propos de tes compétences auxquelles on ne peut qu'accorder le bénéfice du doute et qui ma foi n'est pas préoccupante pour le moment.
Bon il est vrai également que certains ont un peu haussé le ton, mais rien de bien méchant et c'était une accroche collatérale, soyons honnêtes.
Néanmoins, tu dois comprendre que si tu veux l'attention de la communauté Blender, c'est de faire ou du moins d'assurer une grande facilité d'utilisation entre Blender et Muse, je ne parle pas du "bouton universel" qui te sortira une image photoréaliste mais d'un support d'une grande partie si pas tout des éléments constituants d'une scène Blender.
Après tout, tu pointes bien ta cible via ta requête, les blenderheads n'ont que faire d'un énième moteur de rendu si ils ne peuvent l'exploité aisément par une passerelle (au moins).
De plus Muse s'inscrivant dans une perspective de "Logiciele Libre" il serait idiot de ne pas le faire evoluer étroitement avec l'une si pas la plus grande suite de création 3D LIBRE qu'est Blender, perso je me fous des projets libres qui se focalisent sur du proprio, on ne demande pas d'exclusivité mais il faut favoriser la bonne marche du LL, si tu ne comprends pas ça c'est que t'as mal compris le libre et que tu fais peut-être une erreur en t'aventurant sur cette voie. D'ailleurs je note sur ton site rendermanacademymachinchose, que tu mets en avant les softs proprios alors que blender n'est même pas mis en evidence, y a pas comme qui dirait une contradiction?

Voilà, tu demandais l'avis de la communauté Blender, ils l'ont donné. Si ils - on - avaient ne serait-ce qu'un Renderman standard, exploitables directement à travers Blender, on serait hyper content, si Muse peut plus en terme de moteur c'est tant mieux.

Et puis faire développer Muse et la "passerelle" en même temps c'est plutôt logique et même malin. Regarde l'excellente cohésion entre K3D et Aqsis, bon le problème est que K3D n'a aucune ergonomie c'est un pur exemple de soft fait par et pour les dev mais néantmoins puissant.

Essaye de n'avoir aucune rencoeur envers la communauté à cause d'une ou deux personnes, ce n'est pas représentatif.

Finalement, la réputation d'un moteur de rendu se fait aussi par les images qu'il peut produire, et si l'outil est accèssible à une grande majorité, c'est tout bénéf... et si c'est LIBRE c'est tout simplement le bonheur :)


+

birras
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Post by birras » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:16 am

you talk about being childish a lot, and that you are so profesional, but then....you write things like:
I am not willing to spend my time working in something for people that don´t deserve it.
how about that for childish?

you come to the blender developement forum, asking what we want from a renderman renderer. In my p.o.v. a pretty dull question. we want it all!! but muse isnt ready yet.

Im not sure if you realize that ppl are quite sensible about certain matters, like:
nameripping:
www.rendermanacademy.com
www.rendermanacademy.tk

the link doesnt say: pixelboxrendermanacademy.tk
as it allready was pointed to you: "muse" at google does give a large number of projects related to software. not very clever indeed, as muse, the future renderer will propably show up at page 5 on every google search. but all that is really off topic. it just shows.....well, I wont get any deeper into it. profesionalism

next thing is credibility.

you mentioned that the pre-alpha version of muse is ready TODAY. all right then, proof us all wrong , and upload it on sourceforge...

If its code is interesting, I bet a couple of renderman fanatics will jump in the train and participate/colaborate with muse.

you mentioned that you are professional and work with professionals. some of us are also professionals and seriously wonder where your professionalism is, writing things like:
Muse will continue. According the Blender connection... I have to think better.............if Blender users are not interested, then so be it.
blender users?
Just READ!!!...... Read and then talk.....
and a couple more remarks of that caliber, wont help you making a lot of friends.
and the home page blender.org clearly says: blender developement.

blender end-user discussions are here:
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Websites.7.0.html

but of course this site here, the developer site is the best place to discuss such a project as an integration of muse or any other renderer.
anybody would go : hurra!! a renderman integration in blender.
but it seems that you kinda step on ppls feet, by using established names, behaving like you do (childish in my pov), quoting from other pages, etc.

nobody is hostile, but I think you should have waited with this anouncement until muse was there, for ppl to download and try/evalorate.

conclution: proof us wrong! you are in the blender-developer forum. nobody is hostile here, really. all we want here is a good 3d-suite blender. every improvement coming from whatever side is more than wellcome! you can be sure of that, and as soon as you can proof us what you got, we will forget all and shut up.


lets see what you 've got. you are developing open source software of which, as you claim there allready exists a pre-alpha version. let us have a look at it! maybe even complile it somehow and render a simple .rib with it.... some might even be interested in improving the code, including other developers of similar projects, or look into the matter of integrating it to blender.
who knows..

but atm you lack credibility, specially after the comments you have made, claiming to be hyper professional and then behaving like a child.

where is muse pre-alpha or even alpha? upload it on your sourceforge page and make us all shut up! :wink:

...bem?!

yeonil
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Post by yeonil » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:45 am

You are all shouting at the wrong direction. The discussion should have ended when the all the features needed were clearly put. Muse support in Blender and Blender support in Muse, or even integration is definitely a good thing for both projects, and I think that the decision couldn't be made at this time, due to lack of hard code, or information about it.

And if this project will succes I will be in the group of happy people.

Yeonil

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:27 pm

Hooray for babel fish:

replace c'est with the it's and it reads just fine.
Pixelbox hello, (j'me makes it possible to address as tu you) It seems that you would have been badly made include/understand and vice versa. Criticisms made with your approach are justified, afflicted except biensûr on that in connection with your competences to which one cannot qu'accorder the benefit of the doubt and which my faith n'est not alarming for the moment. Good it is true also that some raised the tone a little, but nothing malicious good and c'était one hangs collateral, are honest. Nevertheless, you must understand that if you want l'attention of the Blender community, c'est to make or at least d'assurer a great facility d utilisation between Blender and MUSE, I do not speak about the "bouton universel" who will leave you an image photorealist but d'un support d'une great part if not all of the constituent elements d'une Blender scene. After all, you points well your target via your request, the blenderheads n'ont that to make d'un énième engine of returned if they cannot l exploity by a footbridge easily (at least). Moreover MUSE s'inscrivant from the point of view of "Logiciele Libre" it would be idiotic not to do it narrowly evoluer with l'une if not the greatest continuation of creation FREE 3d qu'est Blender, perso I insane of the free projects which are focused on landlord, one does not wonder d exclusivity but it is necessary to support the good walk of the LL, if you do not include/understand that c'est only t'as badly understood the free one and perhaps that you make an error while t'aventurant on this way. Do D'ailleurs I note on your site rendermanacademymachinchose, that you propose the softwares landlords whereas blender n'est not even put in evidence, does not have there as which would say a contradiction? Here, you asked to l'avis for community Blender, they l'ont given. If they - one - had would not be this qu'un standard Renderman, directly exploitable through Blender, one would be hyper content, if MUSE can more in term of engine c'est so much better. And then to make develop MUSE and the "passerelle" at the same time c'est rather logical and even malignant. Look at l'excellente cohesion between K3D and Aqsis, good the problem is that K3D n'a no ergonomics c'est a pure example of software made by and for the dev but néantmoins powerful. Try to n'avoir any rencoor towards the community because d'une or two people, this n'est not representative. Finally, the reputation d'un driving of returned is also made by the images qu'il can produce, and if l'outil is accèssible with a great majority, c'est all bénéf... and if c'est FREE c'est quite simply happiness
Last edited by joeri on Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lucky3
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Post by lucky3 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:58 pm

sounds like the discussion is going on a bad way... What a shame :(

Renderwoman
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Post by Renderwoman » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:03 pm

lol Joeri

Ok, i'm going to translate it, sorry

anyway, i agree with the most blenderheads so...


ps: i'm astonished, Babelfish can't translate "c'est" to " it's"

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:21 pm

Well, I was decided in don't post here again, but after birras post, some responses must be made.

Can you please tell me where do I mentioned the availibility of a pre-alpha version of Muse today?
As I have said before... READ!!! Don't make quotes in vain...
Quote:
I am not willing to spend my time working in something for people that don´t deserve it.


how about that for childish?
Childish. You must be kidding. I am only saying that I will not waste my time working to provide something for a community that has proved that it don´t deserves it.( except for a few members ).
blender users?
You're not a Blender user? Only developer? Nice... You are developing a thing that you don't use? Nice thought...
but it seems that you kinda step on ppls feet, by using established names
Where do I use established names? Have you ever read any post from me using established names? Oh, must be because of the documentation of Muse, with the list of the ones behind RenderMan...
"muse" at google does give a large number of projects related to software. not very clever indeed, as muse, the future renderer will propably show up at page 5 on every google search.
Oh, once again Muse's name. Do you people never get tired of behave like this? As you have said, a large ( in your opinion ) group of projects related to software. And so what? You must be the kind of people that also complain about Gelato's name, because a lot of links leads to ice-cream related websites...
and a couple more remarks of that caliber, wont help you making a lot of friends.
and the home page blender.org clearly says: blender developement.
I am not here to make friends birras. I am here with a single purpose, that was well defined in the initial post.
you are in the blender-developer forum. nobody is hostile here, really.
Hostile? No... Just lacking good education. ( Not all members. This must be said ).
but atm you lack credibility, specially after the comments you have made, claiming to be hyper professional and then behaving like a child.
I, behaving like a child? Don't make me laugh. Read the thread since the beginning and see who has been behaving like a child.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:40 pm

Yes non-native writters on a forum (like me) can create a interesting atmosphere. But luckaly native writters amongst themself also rather read "yeah" letters then being asked though questions.

That's why it's a good idea to visit a blender conference, you can see that they are all lovely boys and girlz.

I think critic is very hard to take if you're not asking for it.
In this case:
Q. "What do you want in a renderer."
A. "Stop working on this now and join a desent group."

Q. "But it's alot of work, can you come up with something brilliant I might want to add in a renderer."
A. "Stop the namedropping, and don't come back untill you have something to show for yourself."

I can see how this can be misread into a hostile posts. But I'm sure, as you state, that if pixelbox has a working renderer, people will love him for it, start poking in the code, and claim they where all for it from the start.

=Oops, Pixelboy has beaten me to it. /me needs to type faster.

harkyman
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Post by harkyman » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:13 pm

One could also view the foregoing exchanges as:

Q: "What do you want in a renderer?"
A: Lot's of good, on-topic answers. Some generic questioning about the duplication of effort that is endemic to Open Source, and a mention of various Blender projects already related to this topic.

Followup: Pixelbox gets the vapors and has to, scandalized, lie down for a moment. Returns in mode of huffy arrogance, pulling strange quotes, bringing up gripes he has with people not on this forum who have criticized his project, picking fights with non-present Aqsis community, maligns Blender community in general (whilst throwing in mild disclaimers). Cannot understand subsequent hostility/skepticism. Get's slapped around by forum regulars.

Devolves into mud wrestling.

I note with pleasure the method that the developers of the Piovra renderfarm have used: They put together a working prototype, then released it, announced it all over the place, and asked for help.

Guess what? It's a cool project, and one that the Blender community is sorely in need of (just like .rib export/integration). Even though they just announced in the last 24 hours, they're getting help. How do I know? I just edited their English docs for them (their English was a little shaky, but not too bad) and am about to send them off to them. The Blender community will give generously of its time and talents to a worthy cause. Pixelbox could take a clue from these folks.

pixelbox
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Post by pixelbox » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:57 pm

harkyman wrote: Get's slapped around by forum regulars.


Guess what? It's a cool project, and one that the Blender community is sorely in need of (just like .rib export/integration). Even though they just announced in the last 24 hours, they're getting help. How do I know? I just edited their English docs for them (their English was a little shaky, but not too bad) and am about to send them off to them. The Blender community will give generously of its time and talents to a worthy cause. Pixelbox could take a clue from these folks.
Guess what? The forum regulars do not slap who they want, but only who let's be slapped.
The attitude of some members have been of arrogance and bad education ( even if you want it or not ).
I am not asking for anyone help. The Muse team is already settled. I was only asking the features that the Blender community wanted to see in a RenderMan compliant. But, as the majority of the members prefer dealing around subjects of names and that sort of thing, instead of dealing with matters concerning Blender, that's the members choice, not mine.

birras
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Post by birras » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:30 pm

I know you haven't seen Muse in action, that's why it haven't be released yet.
Concerning the pre-alpha release, 6 months is the date that whe have right now.
must have gotten this wrong than. misunderstanding. sounded to me as in right now

blender-user. yes Iam a blender user and just a user, with strong interest what is going on in the development.

concerning the established name...well I wont repeat ..its quite obvious.

unfortunatelly you posted far to early, praising your render-engine.

determined questions about technical facts, namely how muse will differ from other renderman renderers you left unanswered, instead I ve read quite insulting things from your part.
Im feeling kind of sorry for you, that you cant see it and I wont go and quote you on things you ve said about being professional , about childish kids and then seeing you snap and reacting the way you do.

I know it is hard to get critisism, but it seems that you get it not only here.
ppl do get upset when others use their names, material, etc. and I bet you would not like it, if somebody else would call himself pixelbox.tk and insist it has nothing to do with you.... and so forth. there are many names you could have chosen for your academy....anyway :roll: you insist..
this is an open forum for anybody and everybody is free to express themself. specially in the news and chat forum. the opinion of each individual does not represent the blender community as a whole. a mature professional should know and realize that.
but your snappy reactions proof different and seem a bit infant.
Childish. You must be kidding. I am only saying that I will not waste my time working to provide something for a community that has proved that it don´t deserves it
this is the news and chat forum, a render specific question would have been better posted in the renderforum here at blender.org

every blenderuser and the whole community would wellcome another render-option. you can be sure of that. if you are into it , go for it!! dont let critisism or doubtfull reactions let you down. and if you are such a professional as you claim you should be able to live with critisism, which is quite normal

if the opinion of a few breaks you... well : doesnt sound professional to me, but hey, as I said that is my opinion, personal and unique and not ment to offend you in any way. read te thread and you should realize that is was you who attaked any critics to be kids, who should play with their toys.

none of the posts made here, represent the blender community as a whole. information on muse is quite vague atm. you should have told us: muse can do this and that...but you asked what would we like to see in a renderman renderer...I could have copied and pasted the specs from PRman11, because that is what I want.
the only info on muse we have is your claiming that muse will differ from all available renderman renderer, without specifying this...

:roll:

the discussion could have turned tecnical, but all we heard from you is vague things and that you dont care what others did or do in respect of a blender renderman export....

[/b]

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