Muse RenderMan compliant with Blender

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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Dani
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:35 pm

Post by Dani »

Salut Pixelbox (french again)

Veux-tu bien exposer en français ta motivation. Ce que c'est Muse, Ce que ça ne sera pas? Il semble que quoi que tu fasse tu n'arrive qu'a exciter les abeilles :) c'est assez mauvais !

Quand tu te lances dans un projet faut bien savoir à quels besoins il répond. C'est comme lancer un énième site sur Blender, Linux et le monde libre: il faut VRAIMENT une originalité, une performance, quelque chose qui le distingue. Car en matière de renderman compliant, ya de quoi faire et pas que de la merde! Et le besoin actuel dans les utilisateurs de Blender, c'est d'une bonne passerelle entre Blender et renderman. Il y a quelques gars qui y travaillent et c'est un projet qui est très suivi.

alors tu as le choix : soit tu fais ton renderman compliant qui tue tout et tu compte sur la passerelle d'une autre équipe, soit tu fournis les deux pour garantir un échange optimal.

Et si t'es prêt à une simple critique: le nom n'est effectivement pas très judicieux, mais si tu y tiens, libre à toi...

Now, on to the english part...

Hum, people : it's his choice to build a renderman-c renderer and to provide an exporter for that one only. Each renderman-c has it's specificities. He owes you nothing. He is doing this because he wants to, he is even asking what features not to omit.

If you read his site you'll see that the names he shows are just about saying which guys did something great to the rendering world. He clearly names them as the Renderman-Core team. there's no mistake there. Is there a problem in providing historical information regarding a job you're doing... in as many phD's I've had the chance to assist to, the guys did a historical situation... and it's always a very good thing : it provides information and context!

On to "who works with you? " problem :
Is there a good reasoning leading from : no known developper to : bad software? Ton wasn't known before doing Blender and releasing it, neither was Trovald, nor B. Levy who first discribed LSCM unwrapping: these guys weren't known before doing what they did and it's a chance they did it and didn't listen to silly people.
BTW the final part of Valery Valentine's CV: go down to the end... you'll see this person knows a lot of stuff around computer graphics. From photo-real rendering to HLSL and NPR... algorithmics and other stuff. And finally, the INRIA is the same university device in which works Mr Levy, not in the same city though.

It looks as if you all put a lot of efforts in not understanding what he was doing! very strange collective phenomenon!

He'll do what he can do, if you guys aren't satisfied take a C book and do your own! He wants to do it for free and you come around yelling "yeah, you got it all wrong! what do you think you're doing? Who are you to talk about Catmull in your website? You smell bad..." This looks like you're not satisfied and grateful anymore for people working and doing great softs for free, now you want them to obey to what your own little needs.
It's a very surprising, astonishing and ...yes.... disgusting behaviour! Shame on you!

In the end, it's the developper's choice: respect it or walk away!

To finish: pixelbox: go for it! may the best one win!

Ciao
Dani

joeri
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:41 pm
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Post by joeri »

He Harkyman, I knew you'd love my piece :)

I'm dutch, and I also prefer the: make first, brag later approache.
But not everybody is dutch :)

If pixelboy can make a great renderer then I'm happy (who cares ;) I'm not paying 1 cent for it.).
Let's not take it to serious as he has nothing to show for yet, but that can change. OpenXPR is interesting.

dani wrote:
"...Is there a problem in providing historical information regarding a job you're doing..."
It can be seen as pretentious and that's a bad thing to calvinists like dutchman and virginians, specialy if you have nothing to show for it, it can be seen as random name dropping for the sake of name dropping. It's not wrong, but it makes the calvinist wonder if its "the real stuff".

"It looks as if you all put a lot of efforts in not understanding what he was doing! very strange collective phenomenon"
He's not doing anything, he has a webpage with some pixar names.
That is at least what meets the eye. The rest is yet to come.

And to pixelboy: the knife cuts on both ends, if your renderer does not render blender scenes then you need another audience for your renderer.
An audience that might not be as interested in your version of renderman since they already have lots of them.

I hope that you are internaly motivated, don't do it to get appriciation, the people who appriciate you are not as loud as the ones who don't. And on a side note; I think that everybody here is very well educated. Or do you mean have bad manners?

Renderwoman
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:35 am

Post by Renderwoman »

It's a very surprising, astonishing and ...yes.... disgusting behaviour! Shame on you!
Are you kidding Dani? tu n'as pas dû utiliser le bon traducteur lol

Also, i don't understand why they attacked him on Name's project, it was stupid, but why do they and he focus on it? it isn't the main problem.

Then, i don't agree with your last part mister Dani.
Okay, the developper is free, fortunetly, but here, he DOES ask our opinion, our wishes.
If he works on a software without taking in account our wishes (these have been asked), why would do we care about it?
And i'm convinced that it'd be more powerful with an established link to Blender at the beginning of project developpement.
Indeed HE is free, but before he makes a big error with his "licence choice" and his audience, he has to think seriously on it. My humble opinion, he doesn't have the good behaviour but hope i'm wrong.
Cause OpenSource doesn't mean: "I SHARE my KNOWLEDGE thus be my SLAVES" nor obviously "SHARE your KNOWLEDGE and OBEY US."

Though if there's no chance, he could be useful for other audience anyway: XSI, Max and Maya (Maya users would be happy, they have "Liquid" , a strong opensource connexion between Maya and RenderMan compliant)

Well, don't waste your time buddies

cheer

ps: Are you French Pixelbox, you seems to have not read my previous post.

Dani
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:35 pm

Post by Dani »

okay, I got carried away about the disgusting part...

What I meant was that pixelbox was already offering something, and even more: asking the expectations of the user, but yet, some came and told him what he specifically had to do.

It's like a mother offering a lego to her kid and the kid takes it, but he starts pulling on mom's robe yelling: "I'LL take the lego but I also want the X-Box and at least two games, cause one game is cheap and no game is useless! I want it I want it I want it!"

get the idea?

It's even worse when i think of it... he didn't even get a chance, he got labelled "vapourwarist" and executed before he could try anything.

renderwoman, I agree that his answers weren't of the gentle and comprehensive kind, but ... he didn't get a chance! and, when I review the thread, he started loosing his temper on the third page... I don't think i would have lasted so long.

And yes, the name is not the most important, it's just that there is already a rock band and a music score editor I know of that already use that name... It's just a "standing" question... but hey, if he wants to keep it that way, no problem...

Anyway, I'd give him a chance... will he take it? that's up to him... his software could be usefulul for others, as you, renderwoman, stated it.

Ciao and take it easy guys!
Dani

pixelbox
Posts: 0
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

Non, je ne suis pas français, mais je peux lire et parler le Français, Renderwoman. Ainsi, il n'y a aucun problème.

I will not talk anymore concerning the name of Muse.
Personally, I totally agree with Dani. Finally, someone with good sense.
If I am asking in here for the members opinions, that's because they count.
If I will implement all of them, I cannot assure that.
I know that Muse will have a good response with XSI, Max and Maya users.
But, I wanted to bring the power of Muse to Blender, to strenghten the Open Source 3D graphics creation community.
I know perfectlly what Open Source means, be relaxed.

Concerning joeri:

(who cares icon_wink.gif I'm not paying 1 cent for it.).
I care a lot. It's a shame that you only see it as something good because you don't have to pay 1 cent for it. I presume that you have this feeling concerning Open Source in general. Only good because is free.
He's not doing anything, he has a webpage with some pixar names.
The only thing you see are the Pixar names?... Not doing anything... I will not even respond to that.
Or do you mean have bad manners?
You understand what I wanted to say. Now, you are starting complaining about that too?

In fact, Dani has been the only one who has demonstrate a good knowledge of computer rendering. The others ( with a few exceptions )talk, talk, talk... and say nothing concerning computer rendering.

Bellorum
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum »

One advice, Pixelbox, and I suggest this in the friendliest manner, for your own good :) Just let it go, get to work on your renderer, knowing that there are people appreciating what you're trying to do. Then come back when you have something to show and blow us off our feet :shock:
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

Renderwoman
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:35 am

Post by Renderwoman »

Dani: i got it. fine.
I know that Muse will have a good response with XSI, Max and Maya users.
Indeed, they have already one connexion, it's easier for them.

Although for Maya and Xsi, i don't know, they have already the killer "Mental Ray".
I know perfectlly what Open Source means, be relaxed.
I'm relaxed :)

Well,
Go Pixelbox, don't waste your time and do an alpha-release for 2005.

As i said earlier, you have the benefit of doubt. (french expression, i'm not sure if it suits well)

++

SamAdam
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:28 pm
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Post by SamAdam »

yeah, that expression works.

we can wait for judgement till later. for now, lets see some tests, even if they involve reading the poly list into memeory and rendering a simple shading image.

joeri
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Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:41 pm
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Post by joeri »

Well I agree with bellorum.

And pixelboy, I'm sorry that I upset you. But I don't think you understood one word I said.
The "who cares" was about me being happy. I'm not paying 1 cent to make me happy... Don't invest in making me happy... Get it?

"I care a lot. It's a shame that you only see it as something good because you don't have to pay 1 cent for it. I presume that you have this feeling concerning Open Source in general. Only good because is free. "

O dear, you know that all by reading 3 posts of me?
I think your english is not good enough to start a discussion on the freedom in open source. I don't believe you are able to express your thoughts in the right way, nor read mine the right way.
It's a heavy freedom/gratis/license/patent discussion and you don't even understand my "who cares" remark. No offense, even I stay out of some discussions because there are more unknown then known words in a sentence.
The open source projects I know are pretty close to crap, not finished, developers toys and things real artists don't use:
some examples;
U2 using opensource? Think not.
Frank O. Gehry using opensource? No way.
Neville Brody using opensource? Nope.
John Lasseter using opensource? Hahaha.
Ton Roosendaal using opensource? Pfff, he's not a madman.

"The only thing you see are the Pixar names?... Not doing anything... I will not even respond to that." Just repeating is a response too. A not very educated one. I was talking about being calvanistic and what meets the eye. So, it looks like there is nothing going on, I'm not saying that there isn't. But from the 15 forums you are administrator of there are only 10 posts, where 9 are from yourself... with 0 replies. Call me Betty, but I don't call that "much going on".

"You understand what I wanted to say."
No I don't. That's why I asked.

"In fact, Dani has been the only one who has demonstrate a good knowledge of computer rendering."
Great.
Well I know who wrote the render parts of blender and they have proven to know a lot more about rendering then you do.
That statement is easy to prove; press F12 in blender and you get an image.
press F12 in muse and,... well you get my point.
I'm sorry that they don't respond to your post, but I know most of them are calvenistic to ( show first, brag later). And they are very buzy writting code, changelogs and making a release (in a week or two). Wich we can download, and use. Every month lots of features are added. Like last month they included an undo system. New edit tools. O, and updated the render system. See, the blender render system is not perfect, but it makes an image, and is open for improvement.
Pretty much the blender way I'd say. "Nie Lulle moar vulle"
Babelfish will turn that into: "Less talk, more work."

"The others ( with a few exceptions ) talk, talk, talk... and say nothing concerning computer rendering."
Pretty much like your website, you must feel at home. :)

About rendering, I'm very happy with turtle on my Maya machine. Mental ray is to slow to have nice interaction with. I've tried renderman a few times, but I don't really like it. It's not a renderer I'll switch to on my maya machine.
But if blender has "internal" , "yafray" & "muse" then muse could be a nice option. What more do you want to hear?

This all of no importance, as Bellorum says, you do your thing, it will be marvelous. (And then a yellow guy with two O's for eyes wich means somebody is shocked)

Bellorum
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum »

(And then a yellow guy with two O's for eyes wich means somebody is shocked)
I was going for a graphic representation of my reaction when I see many pretty images coming out of Muse :wink:
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

pixelbox
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

joeri wrote:But from the 15 forums you are administrator of there are only 10 posts, where 9 are from yourself... with 0 replies. Call me Betty, but I don't call that "much going on".


"The others ( with a few exceptions ) talk, talk, talk... and say nothing concerning computer rendering."
Pretty much like your website, you must feel at home. :)
I presume that with the forum ( is only one not 15, you should count better ), you are talking about PixelBox RenderMan Academy, not about Muse that is the subject of this thread ( but hey, people like to dwell in another places ). The main part of the Academy is not the forum. It's the lessons, tutorials and the news related to RenderMan.

Concerning the second part of the quote... Well, I think that is your english that it's not good enough. I don´t know what website are you refering, but that doesn't matters.
I dare you to find ( at the Academy and at Muse website ) one sentence that has nothing to do with computer rendering. You can be sure that you will not find.
But, hey, you're the one who said that Muse will not render .Rib files ...

p.s: If you press F12 in Muse ( when it's released ), nothing will happen. You have to make an .Rib call...

Bellorum
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum »

Didn't listen to a word I said :roll:
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

pixelbox
Posts: 0
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:10 pm

Post by pixelbox »

Bellorum wrote:Didn't listen to a word I said :roll:
I did listen. :D Thanks for the support Bellorum.

Bellorum
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum »

Okay then :)
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

birras
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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:22 pm

Post by birras »

It's a petty that the thread has turned off topic so much. But it cant be undone.
So in my opinion, the best would be to delete this thread and open a new one in the render forum , here at blender.org.
.rib export is somewhat on the agenda, and from notes Ive read, Ton was looking a couple of month ago for collaborators with broad knowledge of the renderman interface, to make such a thing happen.

Just a few words to you pixelbox:
One of the first things we have learned in design-class was at our first assignment: the creation of a logo for a fantasy product for company x. The most important thing was to find a distinguishable name for the product, so it cant be mistaken with any existing one.
Next thing is a determined shape and colour, but that is of no importance in your case.

I don't think, that it was the smartest of all ideas to use the already existing name rendermanacademy . obviously there already exists a forum named rendermanacademy, which can be found at www.rendermanacademy.com. You insist that your academy has nothing to do with that one and you claim, that it approaches the topic in a complete different manner. The link to pixelbox-rendermanacademy is rendermanacademy.tk.
To me it sounds very similar and it does not show professional qualities using it. Apart from that, this is, not only in my point of view a clear name rip. Sorry to be so frank, but it seems that you forget other ppls feelings, namely rudys, who put a great effort in his forum and created this name.

No professional would have considered using this, already established name for a web-site for renderman learning and would have thought twice about the use of a non distinguishable names for things, as you claim, has nothing to do with the other, but have identical URLs. As for muse, well, take the hint and the already mentioned thoughts about it.

Your project is still quite new, so renaming it, as every professional would advice you to do, wont harm it in any way.

Take this as an advice not an attack and I normally would charge for this, so: save your words before giving snappy infant answers, as you do not do yourself much favour with it
Reactions like shouting READ, etc. dont show your qualities as a professional, nor as a teacher and you clearly want to teach ppl the renderman interface at your academy site. Impatiens is not a good thing to have when teaching. Its not the knowledge but how ppl are approached.
about this thread:
You were asked twice to explain how muse will differ from other renderman render engines?.nothing. no answer, but quotes from other web-sites?!

I somehow have the feeling that these words will be interpreted and understood upside down. Being stubborn is not the finest of qualities.
-------------------------------
back to the topic:

As open-source development is usually done in ppls freetime, it would be a very good idea to pick up existing material, such as the blenderman-script and the code written in tuhopooII and develop it further, maybe collaborate with each other. Again, that's my pov and there are some ppl willing to collaborate with such a project.
I know that you personally are not looking for help, but don't you think it could accelerate things a lot, if there where a couple of collaborators doing the job together?

Best thing would be to open a threat at the render-forum and forget this one. I remember the discussion when green wrote about the continuation of jan walters python scripts to create the blenderman script, before it was finished and goran started to collaborate with him. I was quite exited that finally a .rib export is becomming reality. unfortunately goran and green dont work on it any more...but the base is there

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