fragment shaders and GL rendering.

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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joeri
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Post by joeri » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:19 pm

Money_YaY! wrote: I have a million and half projects that just diee since I cant get renders out fast enough.
Bullocks, you have a big mouth and there your skills end.

Money_YaY!
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Post by Money_YaY! » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:25 pm

joeri wrote:
Money_YaY! wrote: I have a million and half projects that just diee since I cant get renders out fast enough.
Bullocks, you have a big mouth and there your skills end.
Man your just bitter. Ease up, art is eb and flow. Skillz or no skillz an idea should be presentable in a fashionable time. I have no clue how others make their art but I am sure it is pain staking at times.. But in truth t hat will never end since all users tend to try and tax systems at best as they can most times never even realizeing it till the comp goes poof.

bfvietnam
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Post by bfvietnam » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:09 pm

bfvietnam wrote: Joeri, I think your comments are more excuses than explanations..
What is your point here?
I work on daily basis with Maya, in a company with two 3d animators.
(What was it that you do again?)
And you've met and spoke with ash brannon over a storyboard?
bfvietnam wrote: The incredibles was practically all toon
Besides this being nonsens it's not what I'm was talking about.
The animators did not see the hair untill the went to the cinema.
All animation was done on solid shaded boxes.
For the animation proces, the story telling part of a movie, the pixel shaders are pointless. That's no excuss, it's focus. The technical part of any animation is not the most important part of it.
Sure pixel shader started at Pixar, man how many useless projects do they have in a year, just to get the siggraph filled? Lots!

Hair simulation is complex to compute, of course the animators
don't work with it, but it helps, especially if you are trying for a particular look.. Realtime rendering comes in handy.. Good feedback can either be
helpful or distracting, either verbal or visual.. For efficiency, animators
don't work in fully-rendered mode, but if they could they would be able to
do their job better (well the ones that are not distracted by it)..

Joeri you are starting to sound like a techno-wimp.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:50 am

bfvietnam wrote:Joeri you are starting to sound like a techno-wimp.
The assumpsion that anyone is interested in your personal opinions about me is overrated. Sad to see that you are putting your topic defence into personal attacks.
bfvietnam wrote:And you've met and spoke with ash brannon over a storyboard?
Didn't you? How does did add to the topic? I know from Ash Brannon, because he told me, that the animators of the incredibles, did not see any renderings untill the very last minute of production. Even the masks on their faces where not visible during facial animation.
Besides the point anyway, most animators do not see any final render untill the full composite is done.
Although nice animations look nice, most good animations don't look nice, they tell a good story and have nice movements. Emotions are expressed by movement, and by sound, the image is the least important part. That's why movies and tv are more popular than paintings.

Hence making the shader parts less important than the animation parts of blender.
bfvietnam wrote:but if they could they would be able to do their job better
If pigs would have wings they could fly.
Then why do actors not practice on the set in full clothing?

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:00 pm

Money_YaY! wrote:
joeri wrote:
Money_YaY! wrote: I have a million and half projects that just diee since I cant get renders out fast enough.
Bullocks, you have a big mouth and there your skills end.
Man your just bitter. Ease up, art is eb and flow. Skillz or no skillz an idea should be presentable in a fashionable time. I have no clue how others make their art but I am sure it is pain staking at times.. But in truth t hat will never end since all users tend to try and tax systems at best as they can most times never even realizeing it till the comp goes poof.
Render problems are easy solved with more machines.
If it's a money problem then others don't find your efforts worth while.
Or you might not find it worth while yourself, by spending your money on other things then render capacities.

Sure realtime render will solve that problem, a bag of money will solve that problem as well. But if you can't find the money to realize your million and half projects they are probably not worth doing. At least I don't see why I should spend my time on them by writting realtime rendering.
But besides that. How are you going to make interesting animations with blender having these realtime rendering and no animations tools?

Money_YaY!
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Post by Money_YaY! » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:30 pm

joeri wrote:
Money_YaY! wrote:
joeri wrote: Bullocks, you have a big mouth and there your skills end.
Man your just bitter. Ease up, art is eb and flow. Skillz or no skillz an idea should be presentable in a fashionable time. I have no clue how others make their art but I am sure it is pain staking at times.. But in truth t hat will never end since all users tend to try and tax systems at best as they can most times never even realizeing it till the comp goes poof.
Render problems are easy solved with more machines.
If it's a money problem then others don't find your efforts worth while.
Or you might not find it worth while yourself, by spending your money on other things then render capacities.

Sure realtime render will solve that problem, a bag of money will solve that problem as well. But if you can't find the money to realize your million and half projects they are probably not worth doing. At least I don't see why I should spend my time on them by writting realtime rendering.
But besides that. How are you going to make interesting animations with blender having these realtime rendering and no animations tools?

Errrr have you not read my hundred or so posts on animation problems here and elysiun. I know animation tools lack clarity right now. The work flow is bogus for armatures and setting up ik'ss...

But back to realtime render. A bag of money wont help. Buy Maya and you still have a tool that is a tad behind the times, it useally takes plugins to get faster results.. Lightwave has a plugin that progressively renders out a sccenes in steps instead of the entire kitten kabootle..

"dont knock it till ya try it" Ya cant say a tablet will help or hinder till you try one out and at what size.. Same goes for OpenGL view. We have basic polys now. No clue if pixelshaders will help, BUt if it saves countless hours of render then yes it will work for me. I dont care what Pixar did for there stuff. They are a team a HU*GE team, small companies have to work differently.

mchs3d
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Post by mchs3d » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:13 am

Money_YaY! wrote:
joeri wrote:
Money_YaY! wrote: Man your just bitter. Ease up, art is eb and flow. Skillz or no skillz an idea should be presentable in a fashionable time. I have no clue how others make their art but I am sure it is pain staking at times.. But in truth t hat will never end since all users tend to try and tax systems at best as they can most times never even realizeing it till the comp goes poof.
Render problems are easy solved with more machines.
If it's a money problem then others don't find your efforts worth while.
Or you might not find it worth while yourself, by spending your money on other things then render capacities.

Sure realtime render will solve that problem, a bag of money will solve that problem as well. But if you can't find the money to realize your million and half projects they are probably not worth doing. At least I don't see why I should spend my time on them by writting realtime rendering.
But besides that. How are you going to make interesting animations with blender having these realtime rendering and no animations tools?

Errrr have you not read my hundred or so posts on animation problems here and elysiun. I know animation tools lack clarity right now. The work flow is bogus for armatures and setting up ik'ss...

But back to realtime render. A bag of money wont help. Buy Maya and you still have a tool that is a tad behind the times, it useally takes plugins to get faster results.. Lightwave has a plugin that progressively renders out a sccenes in steps instead of the entire kitten kabootle..

"dont knock it till ya try it" Ya cant say a tablet will help or hinder till you try one out and at what size.. Same goes for OpenGL view. We have basic polys now. No clue if pixelshaders will help, BUt if it saves countless hours of render then yes it will work for me. I dont care what Pixar did for there stuff. They are a team a HU*GE team, small companies have to work differently.
I'd like to ask if you have *ever* tried writing realtime-rendering support yourself? It would take less time to go mow a thousand lawns and buy another processor than it would to write realtime-rendering. If you need something so bad that Blender doesn't have, go find a solution other than Blender, or fix it yourself.

ideasman
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Post by ideasman » Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:29 am

if your realy keen, pay a good openGL coder $1000 for 2 weeks work imporving Blenders openGL display.
Then use OpenGL rendering.

Sounds too much? Well its still cheaper then a fast new PC- :P

You can bake radio quite easerly now in Tuhopuu - So openGL rendering would be quite useable. -

Static Shadowbuffer- so the buffer isnt re-rendered each frame could animations up too, when the camera is moving through static scenes.

- Cam

joeri
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Post by joeri » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:03 pm

Now this is getting real silly...

I don't know how a tablet works until I try it?
How about jumping of a building until I try it?

I can perfectly make a assumptions on how my workflow and speed will be when having realtime rendering. Even if there would be something like a perfect world and there would be realtime open gl rendering, or realtime pixel shading there would always be the problem that it's more easy to make scenes that computers can't render on the time that you want to.
For example. Say I'd have realtime pixel shaders I would add a crowd of 1000 people and my machine would take 3 minutes to calculate all there poses, BAM! gone is all the effort in the pixel shader. Your comments just don't make any sense. As Cam says: if something is really important, money is the way to solve it. With this money you can buy hardware, software, knolledge, effort, anything you want.

Anyone who is involved in putting effort into blender knows the advantages that pixel shaders will give the averidge blender user, thinking that they don't is insulting and ignorant. It's just not priority to the current team, anyone not on the team is welcome to start coding today.

Any request should stay a request not turn into a demand.

JWalton
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Post by JWalton » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:09 pm

wow. dejavu.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:45 pm

JWalton wrote:wow. dejavu.
Nope, just the same thing over and over again.

JWalton
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Post by JWalton » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:24 am

joeri wrote:
JWalton wrote:wow. dejavu.
Nope, just the same thing over and over again.
yeah, makes you just want to do something else. instead.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:54 am

JWalton wrote:
joeri wrote:
JWalton wrote:wow. dejavu.
Nope, just the same thing over and over again.
yeah, makes you just want to do something else. instead.
Who me? Hmm,... you? (still reading these posts are yah?)
I don't realy belong anywhere else, what's your excuse?

JWalton
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Post by JWalton » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:36 pm

joeri wrote:Who me? Hmm,... you? (still reading these posts are yah?)
I don't realy belong anywhere else, what's your excuse?
i try to look in once a month, if i get a moment. otherwise i don't belong here.

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