Open Letter

General discussion about the development of the open source Blender

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cekuhnen
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Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:04 pm

Post by cekuhnen »

Hi,

I think we should devide between those who think GI is the holy grail, which are mainly some 3d geeks with hacked maya versions (Stereotype) and those who use blender and yafray for work, like Yaroslav_L and me.

And each time when it comes to texturing and rendering i hit the limitations of blender and yafray with a big bang. Both renderengines are extremly incomplet for todays needs of professional still renderings. light models like anisotropic specular, blured reflection, caustics, color bleeding, and other things are for example the biggest things I miss in blender.

The GI illumination enables me to first light up the scene in a natrual way, and this three key light system is more than unnatural. than specific areas i will help out with hand set lights. the days are over in which i fought with massive light arries to get even close to natural light setups. a trained eye will still see problems. Not only does the GI take care for a well ballanced light distribution, but also takes it care for color bleeding and caustics. The light distribution is only one part of it.

and in this respect i agree with Yaroslav_L. there arent many good product renderings coming out of blender because the engine and also yafray cannot produce what even more professionals than i am, while i am still a student, just need.

with mental ray it is a quick trip to set up dof, GI, caustics etc.

well somebody might say, stop crying and use it. well thats not my point here to flame blender or yafray, because i belive in opensource and i want to support that, because i see a great potential in it. also i am a wuite poor student at the moment. silver isnt that cheapin the masses i use it.

however it is still important to make things aware that the engine needs dramatic improvements. the radiosity engine in blender was great years ago. today i only see the same technique in EI. In mental ray i just can store the photon map from GI and final gathering and than reuse it. the speed increase is dramatic compared to yafray and the resolution is superior compared to vertex color based radiosity.

yes interior and product design is a small part of blender, but it is not that i see high level animations made with blender being produced in high numbers. so i would even say that what Yaroslav_L and i do are minor things.

quite many use maya for product renderings as well, or c4d while this apps are also for animation.

i think the point is that with missing tools/render options people will just not use the software and often i feel this need to actualy say good bye to blender and yafray and jump onto amapi for example. but the recent dev of both the material system and the other improvments just make me hope that after they are finished some strenght will be put into the render engine.


that i also why i disagree with any yafray blender layer combo. that will not work. the GI light pass is only one part whay GI is a must for product renderings today. color bleeding and caustics are the other two important things.

Mats78
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:06 pm
Location: Vantaa, Finland

Post by Mats78 »

I know that nowbody can't resist (refuse) from technical progress!
For example: you still use stereo cesette player, or mp3?
And come the time, when Blender will have GI. But!
But other 3D soft will have more new features.
Mmm.. but then again if you think about it: what is technical progress? Blender (in my experience) has most of the usability features missing in the other apps. So maybe Blender was designed to work, instead of being sold as having these extra beautiful GI capabilities.

A working system is way better if you ask me. Look at Max (I've used versions previous and including nr. 6, so I'll complaint about those). In Max for things to work, you need to get a hold of a zillion plugins, most of which cost you even more $. And even after that you have a system that is very slow to use, does a lot of strange things, has horrible user interface (ok, personal preferences here), and crashes all the time. But Max has all nice features, on paper.

I guess it's a matter of what you prefer - I can only give you the advice to acknowledge all options and support the programs you like. I think that's the right way to go, being fanatic isn't (I'm not suggesting you are =) but there are some posts here that sort of have that fanatic-feel over them).

Cheers,
Mats

cekuhnen
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:04 pm

Post by cekuhnen »

Mats78

you post reads like you do not realy understand what max and maya stand for today. true the plug ins are what makes max and maya good. mayas internal render engines is well pretty weak but you also have mental ray with it and today a complet plug in for renderman including creating the shadernetwork within maya. fluid simulations and others in maya or pyrocluster for max are other high level, high performance plug ins which are essential for special FX demands you need today.

i can bring blender to crash very often if i want, and i have scene both blender and yafray refuse to render.

max and maya crash as well true, but which app doesnt?

you talk about a working system. to my knowledge blender is far away from even being called a working system when it comes to quite complex situations.

it is true that i know quite some people who model in wings3d and import that stuff into maya to texture and animate. maya is not know and so is max as perfect model tools but are known for their animation and special fx potential.

one app always is a step ahead with somthing new and than the others jump forward.

i think your comparision between usability and functionality doesnt work.
i know to many to refuse blender because of the way it works. after the first well a new app hype is gone they just plainly refuse the app because of the sometimes tricky way you have to use it.

that starts with key layout and ends with the python problem, both issues will will be worked on as well and are a develloping project.

i want to make it clear again, that i am not against blender, I seriously just cannot agree with statements you made on an objective not a personal level.

claas

Mats78
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:06 pm
Location: Vantaa, Finland

Post by Mats78 »

i want to make it clear again, that i am not against blender, I seriously just cannot agree with statements you made on an objective not a personal level.
And that's alright. Of course I include other programs than blender in my repertoire as well.

I haven't really used Maya, so I dare not touch that one. And as I said, my Max experience is from a time when no Mental ray was included, so I dare not touch that one either. But for me, Blender's interface, speed and stability proved alot better than what I ever saw in Max. Character studio (as one example) was at that time very badly designed - both ui- and stability-wise. The feturelist was nice, but sadly, only on paper.

I'm not really happy about trashing other apps, that's no way forward. Max has good things about it, of course. For example, it sits very well in a Discreet (is it Autodesk today?) filled pipeline, I've used Combustion quite a bit myself and it's nice to use programs designed to work together =) Max has many features I miss in Blender, out of which some are on their way.

Ok, I'll stop now.

Cheers,
Mats

cekuhnen
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:04 pm

Post by cekuhnen »

thats ok, there are no hard feelings on my side.

i just feel lately urged to clear that the fluid system in blender is not like a fluid system in maya and those plug ins are even why you use maya for that.

doesnt mean that i do not respect blenders integartion, they are just serving two different fields, or needs. that needs to be keep in mind.

LetterRip
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:03 am

Post by LetterRip »

i can bring blender to crash very often if i want, and i have scene both blender and yafray refuse to render.
So make example blends and put them in the bug tracker :)

LetterRip

Yaroslav_L
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Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:59 am
Location: Ukraine

Post by Yaroslav_L »

Blend_to_Pov.py exporter script - will be interesting for interior designers!!!
http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ca2b37ebc9
________________
Yaroslav Lebidko
"3D XATA"
Interior design. Arch viz.
www.3DXATA.com

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