Yafray is Ok, but why not MegaPOV ?

Blender's renderer and external renderer export

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rcas
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Yafray is Ok, but why not MegaPOV ?

Post by rcas »

I know Yafray and is quite nice, the interaction with Blenders latest version and running as a plugin is very good.

Yet, I already tried out both Yafray and MegaPOV (based on POV-Ray) and I believe this last one to be better.

I my opinion MegaPOV might be a better renderer for Blender than Yafray.
It would be great to have MegaPOV renderer also included on Blender, not meaning that Yafray should be discarded.

Any opinions on this ?

For the experts, would it take a lot of work to make MegaPOV work with Blender just like Yafray is working right now ?

MegaPOV website.

xand
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Post by xand »

have you ever look for Povanim by jms ?

if that doesn't fulfill your desire, ask more to the author.

+++

rcas
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Post by rcas »

xand wrote:have you ever look for Povanim by jms ?

if that doesn't fulfill your desire, ask more to the author.

+++
You are right, I've been at POVAnim page a while back and I got the impression that it was only compatible with POV-Ray and that it was only for Blender 2.32.
I guess I was wrong, thanks for the reply.

I will ask him if he can do some more enhancements on the script to make it support the new MegaPOV 1.1 and Blender 2.34.

arnaud
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Post by arnaud »

rcas:

It's nothing personal, but here are my 2 cents. In short: "I don't think so". But if someone capable in both programs shows me a comparison that tilts the balance, I'd be happy to see this effort undertaken. To do this, however, everybody would need one or more source blender file available, so others can give their best shots in Yaf, to be sure it's really yaf that must be blamed for an inferior result.

Anyway, I went to the site you indicated, looked at the pictures (scene sections) and was underwhelmed :cry: . I'd like to see one real scene. The stuff for show there is so trivial (most are senseless / mundane / simplistic geometry). I saw nothing that would be out of the reach of Yafray. I wish one of their user had done something the makes you say: whaooua!. But no luck. The yafray galleries, on the other hand sports quite a few very interesting works (artistically or technically speaking)...

So, I wouldn't worry about it, and dilute the effort already put into Yafray.

Arnaud

lukep
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Post by lukep »

arnaud wrote:rcas:

It's nothing personal, but here are my 2 cents. In short: "I don't think so". But if someone capable in both programs shows me a comparison that tilts the balance, I'd be happy to see this effort undertaken.

...

Anyway, I went to the site you indicated, looked at the pictures (scene sections) and was underwhelmed :cry: . I'd like to see one real scene. The stuff for show there is so trivial (most are senseless / mundane / simplistic geometry). I saw nothing that would be out of the reach of Yafray. I wish one of their user had done something the makes you say: whaooua!. But no luck.
Arnaud
the Megapov site host only test scenes no wonder there is no breath taking scenes :

for examples of the capabilities of PovRay (and MegaPov that could be seen as the tuhopuu of Pov) :

http://www.oyonale.com/ personal site of Gilles Tran, one of the best known (and prolific users) of Pov
http://povray.org main site with a gallery
http://irtc.org many of the competitors use povray.

Yafray and Pov are very different in capabilities. Both are good

The main interest of Pov is that it's a language based renderer, meaning that you can use very complex macros with it, while keeping the scene manageable. it is also very capable for CSG geometry.

rcas
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Post by rcas »

A competion using POV-Ray:
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/p ... rac/final/

Some works with POV-Ray and MegaPOV that might show a bit more:
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/person ... ns-13a.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/office-13.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/jarron.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/person ... has-8b.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/patio.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/typing.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/balanza.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/person ... still3.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/marjal.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/balcon.jpg
http://www.ignorancia.org/images/personal/hotel.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... throom.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... dshore.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2004 ... diving.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2004 ... gclsus.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2004-06-30/sps.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2004 ... rocket.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2004-04-30/mekka.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2004 ... tpiano.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2004 ... _mytho.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... abylon.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... uzzled.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... umbing.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... tes_rg.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... tscrew.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... ld_new.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... diogrv.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... dtimes.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003-12-31/ssa.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... gotten.jpg
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003 ... vplane.jpg

arnaud
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Post by arnaud »

OK rcas + lukep : now I say :shock: :D !
Thanks for those pointers! What a treat. Some of this stuff is ART, as in real art.

But I still believe Yaf is on par w/ POV. When I tried POV a few years ago, and it bugged me because of its lack of integrated GUI and it left me with a negative bias. Similarly, you may have years of positive experience with POV, and have a strong positive bias.

So, IMHO, adding POV as an integrated render to Blender would surely benefit POV.
And I don't see how it could detract from Blender either (for all I know, the guys coding would be different guys, so nothing would be lost). In fact, in the end, it may well convert POV users to Blender :wink:

So it ought to be good for Blender, in some measure...

For memo (for those who hadn't looked), there are a bunch of python exporters to POV (I don't know if they are up-to-date):
http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~mein/blend ... rters.html
I suppose, it's a bit like you had to use Yable some time ago. Nothing insulting / wrong with that, I think.

Arnaud

Koba
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Post by Koba »

People can be very passionate about PovRay can't they?

One day I'll know why (other than the excellent SDL tutorial on raytracing in the POVRay documentation - yes, I know SDL is powerful)

I have given PovRay a chance I really have (two chances in fact) and I will keep giving it a chance till I know what the fuss is about.

I realise I am only an ignorant hobbyist but for some reason POV images have never quite cut it with me. I understand PovRay is going to undergo a complete rewrite: maybe then I'll be converted. Yafray's Monte Carlo approach can be noisy but with enough samples the results look great. Maybe it is the regularity of the ray shooting that bothers me. Or the sharp shadows. When PovRay GI is used it does look better but there is still something not quite right about the images.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is mine.

Koba

dcuny
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Post by dcuny »

I was under the impression that the licensing of POV-Ray prevented it from being included into another program, even if that other program was completely free, open source, etc..

One of the results of this is that you can only call POV-Ray as an external program, so it's a bit clunky to use. YafRay, on the other hand, has no such restrictions, so it can be nicely linked into Blender.

The speed of POV-Ray is a bit of an issue, as well. Reading through the POV-Ray newsgroup, I gathered that the general consensus was that the relatively slow rendering times would always relegate it to being a hobbyist tool - albiet, one capable of producing amazing results.

ideasman
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Post by ideasman »

I like how the yafray developers arnt tight arses about the source code- Release cycles seem to be shorter (younger I know) and the developers are working with blender (Big bonus)-

Povray is definetly capable but just 'THE WAY it WORKS' bothers me somtimes- It tries to be a VRML for rendering, and that approch worked when PC's wernt powerfull enough to run modeling programs.
but Hey, I can build a scene in a text editor- its not exciting anymore.

jesterKing
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Post by jesterKing »

ideasman wrote:I like how the yafray developers arnt tight arses about the source code- Release cycles seem to be shorter (younger I know) and the developers are working with blender (Big bonus)-

Povray is definetly capable but just 'THE WAY it WORKS' bothers me somtimes- It tries to be a VRML for rendering, and that approch worked when PC's wernt powerfull enough to run modeling programs.
but Hey, I can build a scene in a text editor- its not exciting anymore.
Povray is just what it is, a raytracer. There are a few very capable modelers out there, like Moray. And when leaving out external modelers, yafray is as much text based as povray, where SDL is even rocking cool.

And I think the way they control the process is a very respectable way to develop their software. If you don't like that they keep the process thightly in their own hands, too bad. It's not that they have any obligations towards the users concerning the way they manage their development cycle.

/Nathan

ideasman
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Post by ideasman »

Its more of a focus thing- Yafray uses humenly readable XML files- but dosent focus on-
Make a scene in notepad.

I got the impression POV wasnt GPL/OSS- (ie some restrictions) but if there arne none (even if its not GPL)- Then thats cool.

Even some of the nice scenes linked to above have annoying POVRAY traits-
still very nice tho.

chris_h
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Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:33 am

Post by chris_h »

Hello,

i just saw this discussion and thought i should clarify a few things about POV-Ray:
  • the idea that POV-Ray is slow in general is a widespread but quite baseless urban legend. The fact that some of POV-Ray's most popular features are quite unique (so there are no other programs to compare to) also adds to this. This does not mean that there are no things in POV-Ray that could be improved speed-wise but most things are already quite efficient.
  • the POV-Ray license. It is not 'open source' by strict definition but you can freely use it, have access to the source and can modify it and distribute modified versions. It is correct that linking POV-Ray directly into another program is not allowed - if this prevents someone from using it so be it. :-)
  • if you are interested in seeing some relatively recent POV-Ray made images you might want to have a look at the gallery on povray.org: http://www.povray.org/community/hof/
A few notes about Yafray and what has been said comparing it to POV-Ray:
  • from what i understand Yafray only supports triangles as basic geometry elements. This might be completely sufficient for the purposes it is used for (in combination with blender) but it well illustrates that comparability of these two programs is quite limited.
  • i have not yet seen a single complex scene (meaning a scene with at least a few hundred MB of memory use for geometry data) rendered with Yafray. This might be pure coincidence or simply not what this program is aimed at but since complex scenes are a common use of POV-Ray this of course seems quite striking to me.
-- Christoph Hormann

kawias
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Post by kawias »

Hi,

why POV-RAY including into Blender? In my visualization program for molecules (VMD) there is an render-feature that uses installed raytracers such as POV-RAY, RenderMan or Raster3D. In any case (installed or not) a input file for the selected raytracer is written out. In my opinion this would be sufficient and no problems with licenses for any raytracer would occur.


Best regards,

Björn

ideasman
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Post by ideasman »

okay- povray is a good mature raytracer-

Maby blender ppl should contavt povray ppl and discuss intergration???

It depends on yafray development too- blender alredy supports yafray so if yafray will improve (compete with povray) then it mightent be worth full pov intergration-

Anyhow JMS's POV Anim script is ment to be good- use that for now.

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