Please keep the engine in Blender

Game Engine, Players & Web Plug-in, Virtual Reality, support for other engines

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arangel
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Please keep the engine in Blender

Post by arangel » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:58 am

I´d like to express my gratitude for the existence of such a great application: Blender.
As I´ve heard, the developers on the BF are talking about possible ways for the engine (keep developing or not).
I think that the GE is one of the great advantages of the Blender suite. There is NO OTHER program (as far as I know...) that can do all aspects of game and interactive project creation (model, texture, logic and instant playback).
I´m using it for a very big project (www.Brasilia3D.com.br) and I´m sure many others will follow. And for that, I would love to still be able to use Blender. So please, keep developing this great product (Blender AND the engine).

Thank you very much !
Alexandre Rangel
Multimedia Designer
www.3Dzine.com.br

joshuaseaver
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I'll second that!

Post by joshuaseaver » Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:04 pm

I work in interactive media and use the Blender game engine in several applications for kiosks and classes. We all have a love/hate relationship with the game engine (love it for what it can do/hate it for what it can't), and would be extremely dissapointed if it went away in future versions of Blender.

rcas
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Post by rcas » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:47 pm

I suggested that the gameengine would be replaced by Ogre, making only a layer from Ogre to Blender to make it work in a way that you could still use Logic Blocks instead of just hard programming.

That would remove the pain that is updating and fixing the game engine and leave it to a specific team that already has a superior game engine.

I believe that the Ogre Team already has some Python Scripts to use Blender as a modeller and export things to Ogre. The remaining could be done joining forces. I believe that the Ogre Team would be pleased of such integration.

Just my 2 cent.
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:13 pm

I think that such a move would be a great idea.

Let "others" make all the game engine parts and let blender worry about the game creation part.

kakapo
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Post by kakapo » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:15 pm

ogre is only for graphics. you still would have to add things like collision detection/physics and sound. from what i heard one of the big problems of the current blender game engine is physics so ogre wouldn't solve anything in this regard.

ogre also is much bigger than blender's game engine. probably it wouldn't be possible anymore to simply switch to the game engine without any delay?

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:31 pm

If ogre is only graphics then thats no good.
It needs to be a full game engine. This means Graphics/ Sounds/ Animation etc. etc. (maybe even high level stuff like AI).

Transporting (compiling) blender data to the external game engine needs to be fast (preferably). Currently the data is also being converted, and that does not seem to take much time.

kAinStein
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Post by kAinStein » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:16 pm

joeri wrote:If ogre is only graphics then thats no good.
It needs to be a full game engine. This means Graphics/ Sounds/ Animation etc. etc. (maybe even high level stuff like AI).
Yes, Ogre3D (Object-Oriented Graphics Rendering Engine - I believe) is only a 3D graphics framework. Animation, yes. Sound ,no. No AI, no other things.

It's quite easy to write your own application with it. Even integrating a physics engine or scripting. But: You've got to write your own game engine. Which is probably much better in regard of performance, because you don't have to take care about universality, like the Blender game engine does.

So using Ogre or any other 3D engine wouldn't really be an option, I think, because you've got to write the game engine from scratch again: Meaning main loop, ressource managing (Ogre has it's own managing system), physics, scripting hooks, etc.

That's what many ppl don't really understand: Sometimes the term game engine is used as a synonyme for 3D engine. But a game engine is more than a 3D engine!

So if there are not enough developers to debug and extend the current game engine in Blender then there are certainly not enough coders to start over from scratch! And trust me: The Ogre developers surely have enough work with maintaining and extending their own work! ;)

Also I detect the illusion some people have that they could make the next HL2 oder Doom3 with the Blender engine - if it only has the needed features. The most needed for that purpose would be performance - which means especialized rendering contexts, especialized scene managing, especialized memory managing, etc. And those things can only be achieved by adapting the game engine to a specific game (type).
Transporting (compiling) blender data to the external game engine needs to be fast (preferably). Currently the data is also being converted, and that does not seem to take much time.
Not sure what you mean.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:56 pm

Yes yes. All true.
But there are game engines that take objects and scripting to make a game. If blender can provide the objects and translate the logic bricks into a script (for that engine) then the game engine could be developed externaly.
Ofcourse not all game engines work with a sensor/controller/actuator system. So the transfer might not be 100% (so whats new?).
But if a good game engine is choosen (and maybe it does not exists 'cause HL & Doom are programmers engines) it might be a good idea to have blender as the visual script writer (Just like dreamweaver is a visual html writter).

Even if there is no such game engine, it might be a good approach for a (new) blender game engine anyway. Let it read xtml and anybody can write an exporter to the new game engine. Yes, yes. who's going to do all the work, I know. But if someone is going to put effort into this anyway, why not try the external aproache? The current blender game engine is pretty much stand alone anyway.

rcas
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Post by rcas » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:38 pm

Please take a look at this :

irrlicht
tutorials

It is a "Game Engine" or what you may want to call it.
It has tutorials explaining how to use ODE physics engine and other physics engines with it. So it is partly done.
And it seems to be also well integrated with audiere.

So I just don't know what you think, but it might be a better solution to Blender to use this (ODE should be well know to Blender Devs I presume), that continuing the development on the current Game Engine.
Just build the layer that might unify this and it would remove lots of work from the current developers and would eventually increase it's popularity.

Just to finish, the Irrlicht exports Blender files, so ....
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

rcas
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Post by rcas » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:57 pm

rcas wrote:Please take a look at this :

irrlicht
tutorials

It is a "Game Engine" or what you may want to call it.
It has tutorials explaining how to use ODE physics engine and other physics engines with it. So it is partly done.
And it seems to be also well integrated with audiere.

So I just don't know what you think, but it might be a better solution to Blender to use this (ODE should be well know to Blender Devs I presume), that continuing the development on the current Game Engine.
Just build the layer that might unify this and it would remove lots of work from the current developers and would eventually increase it's popularity.

Just to finish, the Irrlicht exports Blender files, so ....
Seems like Ogre also does all this marvelously, it has bindings for ODE, Java and Python. And it can also be quite usable with audiere.

So, there are already 2 choices...
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

rcas
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Post by rcas » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:07 pm

Else we can use Yake.
Yake is a small, flexible, cross-platform game engine / application framework licensed under the LGPL. It uses Ogre for graphics, ODE for physics, OpenAL for sound, and Lua for scripting.

More on Yake.

Ok, I won't post any more stuff ......
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

kAinStein
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Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:15 am

joeri wrote:Yes yes. All true.
But there are game engines that take objects and scripting to make a game. If blender can provide the objects and translate the logic bricks into a script (for that engine) then the game engine could be developed externaly.
Well, most engines only provide rudimentary entity systems and main loops from which you can and should derive your own. But it's nice to try things out, yes. Anything else wouldn't be enough in most cases.
Ofcourse not all game engines work with a sensor/controller/actuator system. So the transfer might not be 100% (so whats new?).
But if a good game engine is choosen (and maybe it does not exists 'cause HL & Doom are programmers engines) it might be a good idea to have blender as the visual script writer (Just like dreamweaver is a visual html writter).
Yep. That's definitely a good idea. I'm not sure how the progress in the development of the Blender Python is. But if you were able access the logic structure from Python then ppl could write their own exporters for that purpose. And I'd adore it to be honest! It's very nice to try things out in Blender, too, when you model and animate in Blender and a hell of work to port it to your game or writing your own tools (though you can't avoid, either).

I don't expect an all-purpose visual script writer because there are too many entity systems and script languages used. But actually the overall structure is quite similiar.
Even if there is no such game engine, it might be a good approach for a (new) blender game engine anyway. Let it read xtml and anybody can write an exporter to the new game engine. Yes, yes. who's going to do all the work, I know. But if someone is going to put effort into this anyway, why not try the external aproache? The current blender game engine is pretty much stand alone anyway.
As I said: Full Python access to the game logic of objects from within Blender would be enough for the first step. Though I haven't searched for it. Perhaps I should look at it, but I doubt that it exists.

Also nice would be to have the possibility to create own logic bricks from Blender Python to add extra data to the export. People could simulate the behaviour of the "native" engine in the Blender engine via a script for example and export the original linking. Can't explain it further right now. My english seems to be too limited right now. ;)

kAinStein
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Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:29 am

rcas wrote:Please take a look at this :

irrlicht
tutorials

It is a "Game Engine" or what you may want to call it.
Irrlicht is another 3D graphics engine. But not as stable and mature as Ogre from what I tried out.
It has tutorials explaining how to use ODE physics engine and other physics engines with it. So it is partly done.
And it seems to be also well integrated with audiere.

So I just don't know what you think, but it might be a better solution to Blender to use this (ODE should be well know to Blender Devs I presume), that continuing the development on the current Game Engine.
Well... If there were only 1 1/2 developers working on the engine (Sorry Saluk, that I count you only as a half - no offense meant! But that's what I understood from your statements in the past. ;)) and now 0 (Kester seems to be really busy from what I've read) then how would you get enough developers to start from scratch and design a new game engine using the named frameworks, that could be easily integrated into Blender and be fast and flexible enough to make it easy for artists to build the game worlds they'd like to do?
Just build the layer that might unify this and it would remove lots of work from the current developers and would eventually increase it's popularity.
Who should do it? You are talking of a complete rewrite. Sometimes it is better to start things over, of course. But if you don't even have anyone to debug and maintain the current?
Just to finish, the Irrlicht exports Blender files, so ....
You mean of course that Blender can export meshes that can be imported by Irrlicht... ;)

rcas
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Post by rcas » Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:24 am

kAinStein wrote: ....
It would be easier to make an interface to an external Game Engine, than just try to code it in Blender. Much more developers could do an interface of a specific Game Engine to Blender.

You now don't have any developer working on it because it is a task that requires time, much knowledge and knowing Blender quite well.

Making an Interface to a specific Game Engine would mean lesser time (although starting from scratch I believe that it would take less time than adding the stuff missing in the current game engine + bug fixes), the coder would also need to know Blender quite well, but would require much less knowledge from the coder behind it. I believe that any Blender coder would be capable of doing such a thing.

Please don't think I am saying you guys aren't smart it has never crossed my mind, but, just as an example, doing a collision detection system would require a certain degree of knowledge from the coder doing it and I would say that possibly not all Blender coders would be up to the task (I hope I am wrong :) ).

So, I believe that making an interface to an external Game Engine would be a better choice.
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:22 pm

What do you mean with interface? User interface, programming interface? And in what manner?

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