bf-blender / Windows (2004/05/19) w/ weighted creases

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Koba
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Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:48 am

Post by Koba » Fri May 21, 2004 6:52 pm

Hi

The creasing is a nice feature but I don't get how the zoom works. Please forgive me for being thick. The mouse wheel only seems to zoom out now not in. Maybe it is because of my new wireless mouse but I doubt it.

Back to the creases. It is good that you are improving how weights are set. How about a slider somewhere? I also wish Blender could select edges/faces in a single click instead of having to select individual vertices (like Wings does it). :( . This would make this very nice feature much easier to use.

Koba.

malefico
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:51 am

Post by malefico » Fri May 21, 2004 9:49 pm

I also wish Blender could select edges/faces in a single click instead of having to select individual vertices (like Wings does it).
Well, maybe not exactly like Wings, but, you know, you CAN select edges.
1- Keep CTRL+ALT pressed when clicking on an edge
2- Keep SHIFT to add selections.

Or

ALT+B to select a larger edgeloop (a vertex loop actually).

In Tuhopuu there is also an amazing Face selection for Edit Mode, that works with ALT+V. Will it be ported soon to BF ?

Anyway, maybe you were referring to something more ala Wings.

Koba
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:48 am

Post by Koba » Fri May 21, 2004 11:33 pm

Hi

Thank you very much for that information.

Blender?s greatest flaw is that you just don't know exactly what is available. It is frustrating (for me and probably you) that people (like me) keep having to ask for features that are already there. How was I meant to know that I should press Ctrl and Alt? Maybe I should have read more documentation but how much documentation do I need to read? If Blender's interface was improved I doubt I would have to ask.

I understand that experienced Blenderheads want to keep the status quo with respect to the interface. It is a tool they have gotten slowly used to and now work very efficiently with it. I have been reading so many forums about Blenders UI recently and it all seems to be going nowhere.

The argument goes that these UI improvements would be dumbing Blender down ("For tools press space"). Or that it will end up reflecting the interface of 3D Studio Max. That people who don't understand Blender aren't trying / don't understand CG / want it to be like some "high-end" 3D app.

I don't know Lightwave / 3D Studio Max / Maya. I only know Blender. I have been using Blender for years now. I don't think it?s because I don't understand CG. Is it only me who feels Blenders UI could be made more intuitive and efficient while keeping its strong points? Am I not trying hard enough?

Sorry about this rant. Completely off topic. I apologise. I just feel frustrated that I discover Blender's most useful features from the occasional hint from those in the know. Does it have to be like this?

Koba.

ilac
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 8:24 am

Post by ilac » Sat May 22, 2004 12:30 am

Koba wrote:Hi

Thank you very much for that information.

Blender?s greatest flaw is that you just don't know exactly what is available. It is frustrating (for me and probably you) that people (like me) keep having to ask for features that are already there. How was I meant to know that I should press Ctrl and Alt? Maybe I should have read more documentation but how much documentation do I need to read? If Blender's interface was improved I doubt I would have to ask.

I understand that experienced Blenderheads want to keep the status quo with respect to the interface. It is a tool they have gotten slowly used to and now work very efficiently with it. I have been reading so many forums about Blenders UI recently and it all seems to be going nowhere.

The argument goes that these UI improvements would be dumbing Blender down ("For tools press space"). Or that it will end up reflecting the interface of 3D Studio Max. That people who don't understand Blender aren't trying / don't understand CG / want it to be like some "high-end" 3D app.

I don't know Lightwave / 3D Studio Max / Maya. I only know Blender. I have been using Blender for years now. I don't think it?s because I don't understand CG. Is it only me who feels Blenders UI could be made more intuitive and efficient while keeping its strong points? Am I not trying hard enough?

Sorry about this rant. Completely off topic. I apologise. I just feel frustrated that I discover Blender's most useful features from the occasional hint from those in the know. Does it have to be like this?

Koba.

Yes, you should read more documentation and
No, this is not a Blender related problem.
I am certain there are several things in ever other 'big' software you use (including your OS and your word-processor) that you do not know exist. The only fault blender has in this regard is that the help documentation is not in-built with the software - but there is ample documentation online and few questions at Elysiun go unanswered for that which is not covered elsewhere. Those 'in the know', know, because they take the trouble to look for answers. Everything that is available to them is available to you and every other user.

Don't mean to take it out on you but this is definetly not a Blender Interface related issue. It's an amateur user vs professional software problem - relevant to most software. Take the trouble to find out things, there's always more to learn. :wink:

Bellorum
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum » Sat May 22, 2004 12:08 pm

Don't mean to take it out on you but this is definetly not a Blender Interface related issue. It's an amateur user vs professional software problem - relevant to most software. Take the trouble to find out things, there's always more to learn.
Well, the thing is as Koba stated:
I have been using Blender for years now.
And I'm not going to speculate as to if that makes him a professional user or not, but that's really besides the point.

My opinion is, that it is a Software-related problem, when you can't figure out something as fundamental as selecting an edge without consulting hundreds of pages of Manual. Just my 2 cents, of course.
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

ilac
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 8:24 am

Post by ilac » Sat May 22, 2004 12:15 pm

Bellorum wrote:
Don't mean to take it out on you but this is definetly not a Blender Interface related issue. It's an amateur user vs professional software problem - relevant to most software. Take the trouble to find out things, there's always more to learn.
Well, the thing is as Koba stated:
I have been using Blender for years now.
And I'm not going to speculate as to if that makes him a professional user or not, but that's really besides the point.

My opinion is, that it is a Software-related problem, when you can't figure out something as fundamental as selecting an edge without consulting hundreds of pages of Manual. Just my 2 cents, of course.
[/quote]

Current edge selection in Blender is more of a hack and not proper edge selection. When Blender has a proper Edge mode I'm sure it will be a lot more 'in your face'. Using software for years doesn't mean you know it inside out, especially given the rate at which softwares developed - so that's no excuse. I find myself explaining things in Softwares (such as photoshop etc) to people who are far my senior in age and have been using the software much longer than I have. The difference is I take the time and trouble to research, study and keep up to date. Doing something for years is a measure of quantity not quality. Feel free to quote me on that to anyone who tells you they know better because they are older than you! :wink:

Bellorum
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum » Sat May 22, 2004 5:01 pm

Current edge selection in Blender is more of a hack and not proper edge selection. When Blender has a proper Edge mode I'm sure it will be a lot more 'in your face'. Using software for years doesn't mean you know it inside out, especially given the rate at which softwares developed - so that's no excuse. I find myself explaining things in Softwares (such as photoshop etc) to people who are far my senior in age and have been using the software much longer than I have. The difference is I take the time and trouble to research, study and keep up to date. Doing something for years is a measure of quantity not quality. Feel free to quote me on that to anyone who tells you they know better because they are older than you!
Ok. It's just that, sometimes you're likely to miss something in the manual, especially a seemingly insignificant shortcut - and then it's pretty annoying to get a "read the manual!" in your face.
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

ilac
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 8:24 am

Post by ilac » Sat May 22, 2004 8:27 pm

Bellorum wrote:
Current edge selection in Blender is more of a hack and not proper edge selection. When Blender has a proper Edge mode I'm sure it will be a lot more 'in your face'. Using software for years doesn't mean you know it inside out, especially given the rate at which softwares developed - so that's no excuse. I find myself explaining things in Softwares (such as photoshop etc) to people who are far my senior in age and have been using the software much longer than I have. The difference is I take the time and trouble to research, study and keep up to date. Doing something for years is a measure of quantity not quality. Feel free to quote me on that to anyone who tells you they know better because they are older than you!
Ok. It's just that, sometimes you're likely to miss something in the manual, especially a seemingly insignificant shortcut - and then it's pretty annoying to get a "read the manual!" in your face.
Yes, you are the likely to miss something. Only a fool thinks he knows it all! We're going to keep learning new things, no matter how intimate we already are with the software(any software). The point is, you say thank you, you curse the time you might have wasted because you hadn't known about it before (when you 'most' needed it!) -without blaming others for it - and you move on. Not pointlessly complain about something without offering any solutions - especially when its something a lot of people are actually dedicating their time to solving (look at Monkeyboi's proposals, and Broken and Ton's already commited work just to mention a few) Nobody blames someone for missing something in a manual - but don't blame others when you do. ('you' being general a general term) That's when you get a '"read the manual!" in your face"'. We're tired of the getting pointless 'the gui sucks' in our faces.

Koba
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Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:48 am

Post by Koba » Sat May 22, 2004 9:14 pm

I am planning to code Monkeyboi's proposals this summer and I am learning C/C++ to do it. If I get good enough to code anything at all I promise it will be one of his proposals. I have time to learn what I need (3 months or so) and am prepared to do what it takes to get there (buying books etc). I have supported Monkeyboi's proposals in loads of threads. Please don't suggest I am only complaining about it and not doing anything about it. I acknowlege I didn't mention this before in this thread but that isn't an excuse to make assumptions.

I am more than happy to look up how a feature works when I know it even exists. Often in Blender you don't even know something is there so there is no way of knowing you have missed something till someone tells you.

I realise it is my fault for starting this. Oh well.

Koba

steve_t
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 7:10 am

Post by steve_t » Sun May 23, 2004 5:17 am

I have been using blender for a little over 5 years. I still remember what it was like to be a beginner. It was frustrating and painful to say the least. The learning curve havs gotten better since 1.5 but not that much.

The interface is littered with confusing abreviations and features that are only available through hot keys.

There is NO EXCUSE not to have a browser built in so a user can look up(by function) any and all hotkey features in blender.

leinad13
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 5:35 pm

Post by leinad13 » Sun May 23, 2004 10:53 am

Ditto with the zoom thing, the new zooming with the middle mous button is the most annoying thing ever. Please at le\st put an option in between this and the old way. Otherwise ill have to dig up some old blender code and find out how to change it back for my own build. Im really dissapointed with whoever changed the zoom function.

The weighted sub surfs are great, i think you need a button by the subsurf and optimal buttons to set the weights though.
-------------
Over to you boffins

L!13

meestaplu
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:45 pm
Location: CT

Post by meestaplu » Mon May 24, 2004 6:26 am

Koba wrote: Please forgive me for being thick. The mouse wheel only seems to zoom out now not in. Maybe it is because of my new wireless mouse but I doubt it.
No, the zoom should work correctly -- it works over here. It compares the current distance of your mouse cursor to the window center to the distance when you middle clicked; the ratio determines the zoom factor. Let me know if that works.
leinad13 wrote:Please at le\st put an option in between this and the old way.
I just got home from college and have my machine up and running. I will be uploading patches tomorrow.
leinad13 also wrote:Im really dissapointed with whoever changed the zoom function.
Is it really that bad? Probably for you it is, but that doesn't mean it won't get fixed. :wink:
monkeyboi wrote:BUT, if we are going to have a new way to zoom it has to CONSISTANT. In 2.33a and before you zoom in exact same way in the 3D window, the IPO window, the buttons window, the NLA window and so on. Breaking that consistancy is a very bad idea.
You probably didn't see this, but in my "alternate zoom" thread, I did post a patch that made the 2D functionality the same. They are currently consistent.

Matt
I love vector calculus at 4 in the morning.

lozeta
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 2:40 pm

Post by lozeta » Fri May 28, 2004 11:35 pm

Hi,

the weighted sub surfs are really great, but I'm afraid they will be hardly usable with complex meshes, as long as we need to keep the subdivision level to 4-5... lower subdivision levels should produce a coarser definition, not such a different shape...

A couple of things, about "mixing" edges and vertices in selections.
1) look at picture here:
(Try to copy and paste the url's in your browser if you can't see the images)

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/lozeta/shot/blender.jpg

(topmost row)
Blender can't do true edge selection, so selecting and creasing the topmost 8 vertices (left) produces a different shape than selecting and creasing first the inner 4 vertices and then the outer 4 (right). Of course, in the left mesh I have unintentionally creased the 4 "radial" edges.
This is a common problem in Blender, e.g in assigning materials to faces.

Bye the way, notice (in bottom row) that with Blender-crease you can't have any more the usual shape for boundary edges, regardless of any setting for the "crease" value.

2) look at this screen-shot from Maya:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/lozeta/shot/maya.jpg

In blender-crease, the sharpness of a vertex is based on the sharpness of contiguous edges. I think it should be independent, as in Maya. Of course this is impossible with the current selection mixing edges and vertices...

Bye
Last edited by lozeta on Sat May 29, 2004 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ideasman
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Post by ideasman » Sat May 29, 2004 12:20 pm


lozeta
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 2:40 pm

Post by lozeta » Sat May 29, 2004 1:38 pm

it seems that my site doesn't like direct links, so please copy the url in your browser and press enter, it should work.

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