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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:21 pm
by Bellorum
ideas on this?
Well, only that it has to work with split window. Problem I have with the mode-selection icons for verts, face and edge is that they get clipped off when you have a small window, so you have to scroll the header to reach them. Some thought there would be nice. Especially if we're also going to have icons for the widgets.

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:12 am
by crsrma
I meant to address the rmb tweaking more directly but decided to just condense, as my reply was getting a bit wordy. My argument sort of changed while I was editing. Looking at it now, I took out all direct mention of tweak mode. :oops:

I should have removed your quote, sorry for the confusion.

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:41 am
by Bellorum
I meant to address the rmb tweaking more directly but decided to just condense, as my reply was getting a bit wordy. My argument sort of changed while I was editing. Looking at it now, I took out all direct mention of tweak mode. icon_redface.gif

I should have removed your quote, sorry for the confusion.
No problem:)

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:03 am
by SamAdam
i seem to have a large number of shift sticking, where i have to tap the shift key to get it to register the release.

and everything else is nice, but it just shows how long this new release is going to take.
with all these new features, i would definitely agree to calling it 3.0.

but going back to the old interface is a pain. can we get the new one moved over to bf sometime soon?

Just keep working everybody, we can figure out fine details later.

good job on a good build.

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:07 am
by Bellorum
i would definitely agree to calling it 3.0.
My guess that it'll be 2.4:)
but going back to the old interface is a pain. can we get the new one moved over to bf sometime soon?
I agree. I'm getting so used to the new interface, that I get confused whenever I try bf-blender :? I usually wait til the weekly merge and use tuhopuu - unless there's something really cool to test, like widgets:)

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:17 am
by iaminnocent
When selecting more than one vertex, the widget alings itself with the global axes instead of remaining an indicator of the local axes orientation. Is this behavior due to something not being implemented yet or is there some logic that escapes me in it ?

Jean

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:06 am
by iaminnocent
I cannot say that I understand the return to motion based axis selection. It seems to be in opposition to the principles you stated in http://projects.blender.org/pipermail/t ... 01081.html . Plus, that dashed line really reminds me of a crotch for a design that needed to be replaced, not brought back.
Nevertheless I can use it just about as easily as I was able when the proximity of the pointer to an axis was determining the constraint. There is one caveat though : the mouse pointer is better to be close to the center of the object when one starts the transformation for the motion base choice to work well. If the pointer is offset somewhat or more, it has to remain that far from the temporary axes' origin for a choice to be possible. I can feel a lot of the same beginner's question coming on that point. IMO, if this were to be the case, then it would be just one more sign that the old desing always was a bit flawed.
All in all, I can live with it but I'm pretty sure that most people and I would live better with the proximity design.

Regards

Jean

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:59 am
by -efbie-
iaminnocent wrote:Plus, that dashed line really reminds me of a crotch for a design that needed to be replaced, not brought back.
I agree that this dashed line is not the most aestethic thing, but it could be easily made more attractive with a dot at the end.

But i have to say that i never see that line. I just make a small move of 5pixels in the right direction, and it feels just like a click on the mmb. If you take the time to see where is your dotted line, i think that you didn't catched the purpose of this system : speed. Just use it as it were a mouse gesture with mmb !


Nevertheless I can use it just about as easily as I was able when the proximity of the pointer to an axis was determining the constraint. There is one caveat though : the mouse pointer is better to be close to the center of the object when one starts the transformation for the motion base choice to work well. If the pointer is offset somewhat or more, it has to remain that far from the temporary axes' origin for a choice to be possible. I can feel a lot of the same beginner's question coming on that point. IMO, if this were to be the case, then it would be just one more sign that the old desing always was a bit flawed.
the motion is totally indpendant from your inital mouse position. I never had a problem with it.
All in all, I can live with it but I'm pretty sure that most people and I would live better with the proximity design.
I think that the people who want to use a easy and not so fast system can use the widget. Thoses who wants a fast and effective system can use the "gesture" one.

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:08 pm
by iaminnocent
-efbie- wrote:
iaminnocent wrote:Plus, that dashed line really reminds me of a crotch for a design that needed to be replaced, not brought back.
I agree that this dashed line is not the most aestethic thing, but it could be easily made more attractive with a dot at the end.
I wasn't using the word 'crotch' to refer to its appearance. I meant to say that if the motion based system of old times was working well, it wouldn't need to be assisted by the dashed line. But keep reading on : I'm coming around to see your point better.

But i have to say that i never see that line.
I am guessing that you probably use just a quick click of MMB. Then the dashed line only flashes on the screen and is barely noticeable (or of any use for that matter, but only then)

I just make a small move of 5pixels in the right direction, and it feels just like a click on the mmb. If you take the time to see where is your dotted line, i think that you didn't catched the purpose of this system : speed. Just use it as it were a mouse gesture with mmb !
Ummm... I don't know Efbie : if the purpose was to use it just as the old system why then change anything ? My understanding from reading http://projects.blender.org/pipermail/t ... 01081.html was that the new system aimed at fixing a problem mainly for those like me who almost never works in any other view than perspective. MMB gesture just isn't doing it for me under some viewing angles. 90% success is still 10% frustration and makes for a long day's work.
But, thanks to your comments :) , I begin to understand why the motion base system was brought back in and I agree that it speeds up the work when MMB flashing is usable.


Nevertheless I can use it just about as easily as I was able when the proximity of the pointer to an axis was determining the constraint. There is one caveat though : the mouse pointer is better to be close to the center of the object when one starts the transformation for the motion base choice to work well. If the pointer is offset somewhat or more, it has to remain that far from the temporary axes' origin for a choice to be possible. I can feel a lot of the same beginner's question coming on that point. IMO, if this were to be the case, then it would be just one more sign that the old desing always was a bit flawed.
the motion is totally indpendant from your inital mouse position. I never had a problem with it.
I tried it again and it's definitely there.
It may be (probably is) because you are an MMB flasher only : if you had to hold the MMB for a long time, which is the only way to consistenly choose the right axis in some extreme perspective views, when two of the axes makes a very acute angle on the screen for example, then you'd see that behavior too.
All in all, I can live with it but I'm pretty sure that most people and I would live better with the proximity design.
I think that the people who want to use a easy and not so fast system can use the widget. Thoses who wants a fast and effective system can use the "gesture" one.
I hope that I explained my point well enough for you to understand that it is not just a question of ease : under some view angle it is downright unpractical to use MMB flashing, if possible at all.
BTW, I think that the new widget itself is only meant for local transforms, something MMB flashing won't do any way I know of (but I am willing to learn ;) )

I understand your point. That just won't work for me or for other for whose selection problems the reform was designed to solve. The way I use it is still pretty fast, faster than using the keyboard shortcuts ; it's just not 'lightning fast' and I still can get used to MMB flashing when the angle of view is not too extreme. :)

Thanks Efbie : through it all I found some clarification of why the motion base system was brought back and, since I can live with it, I think that it just might be the best compromise between users like you and me. 8)

Jean

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:10 pm
by Yfkar
I like the motion based axis selection. :)
This build seems to have some problems with armatures, though :?
Work with armatures for a while -> save -> reload the .blend -> try to move anything -> blender crashes (after that the .blend causes crashes on older versions, also)

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:23 pm
by gabio
bug or a shouldn't do that: Using the PET tool in editmode, selecte one of the news mode ligne root, linear, constant. Move one vertice and play with the mousewheel at the same time. Vertices exiting the influence zone don't go back to original position.

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:43 pm
by iaminnocent
iaminnocent wrote: I wasn't using the word 'crotch' to refer to its appearance.
Oh boy ! Of course I meant 'crutch'. :oops:
One of those words that I've never seen written before...

Sorry.

Jean

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:11 pm
by Bellorum
Oh boy ! Of course I meant 'crutch'. icon_redface.gif
One of those words that I've never seen written before...

Sorry.
:lol:

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:36 pm
by theeth
iaminnocent wrote:I cannot say that I understand the return to motion based axis selection. It seems to be in opposition to the principles you stated in http://projects.blender.org/pipermail/t ... 01081.html . Plus, that dashed line really reminds me of a crutch for a design that needed to be replaced, not brought back.
The old system used the 3D motion, this one uses the 2D motion. Just that means that it doesn't under the same problems when using extreme orientations.

Using the mouse motion to do that is, I think, more inline with the rest of transform than using the mouse pointer itself since the transformation itself uses that motion to calculate the transformation result. Using the pointer means you need to shift your focus from your selection to the pointer while using the motion, the end of the dashed line is already in your focus.

Martin

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:58 pm
by iaminnocent
theeth wrote: The old system used the 3D motion, this one uses the 2D motion. Just that means that it doesn't under the same problems when using extreme orientations.
Martin
I understand the principle which is very sound.
But then why do I get those result where the same very vertical 2D motion gives flawless results when I am close to the Z-axis but becomes erratic, looking more like its the position that matters, when my pointer is further awayfrom that Z-axis but still moving parallel to it ?

Video 1 (Flash 400 Ko) where the MMB is held all the time.
Video 2 (300 Ko) where the MMB is only clicked for a brief moment.
Captured with Wink so it won't be as fat as an AVI and yet have a good window size.

Jean