bf-blender / Windows (2005/04/18)

User-contributed CVS development builds. Please test and give feedback!

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matt_e
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Post by matt_e » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:59 am

Just a note. Ton is aware of the shortcomings of Ctrl (and cycling in general) is is looking for another solution. Though re-using G/R/S is not a solution for reasons joeri mentioned, and some that I posted about in another thread. Proposals instead of just complaints would be appreciated!

Unfortunately, the silence is a case of "1. Developers not listening" since Ton is not reading anything in this testing builds forum, which is a shame - part of the reason for its existence is to help connect developers with user feedback. If anyone sees him in IRC, it might be good to give him a gentle nudge to read this forum a bit more, even if it's only every now and then and without having to spend time replying to each post.

Bellorum
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Post by Bellorum » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:19 pm

broken wrote:Just a note. Ton is aware of the shortcomings of Ctrl (and cycling in general) is is looking for another solution. Though re-using G/R/S is not a solution for reasons joeri mentioned, and some that I posted about in another thread. Proposals instead of just complaints would be appreciated!

Unfortunately, the silence is a case of "1. Developers not listening" since Ton is not reading anything in this testing builds forum, which is a shame - part of the reason for its existence is to help connect developers with user feedback. If anyone sees him in IRC, it might be good to give him a gentle nudge to read this forum a bit more, even if it's only every now and then and without having to spend time replying to each post.
I hear the arguments, but I will never understand them. But fine, whatever - I'm not a coder. And I gave a proposal, to return to the original behavior (which I still feel was the optimal one) but since that one's out the window, I have no idea how to best solve the situation, so I might just as well shut up.
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

solmax
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Post by solmax » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:12 pm

MikeMLP wrote:Given the hostility of this thread, I know I will get flamed for this, but oh well...

I have been playing with the widgets for a while now, and I havn't found any killer features that are only available with the widgets. Are there any? If so please tell me.
how about moving along two axes in a 3D view (SHIFT + one axis/handle moves along the other two axes), or fast coordinate system switching (LMB on center of widget). these already are killer arguments for me, as they are much nicer than multiple keystrokes, e.g. GXX to get movment along local x axis.

i rather see the peolpe are exited, but not hostile.. :)

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:54 pm

MikeMLP wrote:Given the hostility of this thread, I know I will get flamed for this, but oh well...
Yes there is some tension between Bellorum and me, but nothing to worry about.
Bellorum wrote:So it was the quality of complaints that made developers ignore them?
Broken wrote:Proposals instead of just complaints would be appreciated!
I'd say that's a yes.
Bellorum wrote:Should've have been easy to counter them.
They did, you just didn't agree with them.
broken wrote:
and some that I posted about in another thread
See? I think they rather put their time in coding then typing responses. Specialy if history tells us that people like you will not rest untill your idea is implemented.
(I'm a bit the same, I remember a little dashed line incident I'd rather forget)
Bellorum wrote:so I might just as well shut up.
I thought that was your point in the first place? I don't see how disagreeing with you gives you the need to shut up... Does this mean we have to agree with you once you start saying something? If so, yes it's better to shut up. But I don't believe that your findings are not listend too, that they are not 'obayed' is an other issue. I read them with much interest.
Bellorum wrote:I've seen no indication that this is a work in progress, more like set in stone.
I've seen alot of work being done on the transform. You act like a little kid that does not get's his way. Btw. things are never set in stone with blender. Sometimes I wish they where.
Bellorum wrote:Well, I consider this discussion over for my part. I doubt any change will be made to current behavior. But I encourage others to voice their opinions. I know I'm not the only one having issues with the current implementation.
I'll buy you an icecream if you come to the next blender conference. How about that? Why the gloom?
The way you construct you sentence is interesting, almost like you want only the people who have issues with the implemention to voice their opinions. I voiced mine, the ctrl- cycling does not bother me. As a matter of fact; I find the usage of the ctrl as a key brilliant. Maybe that's because I use the Windows key as a key besides using it as a modifier.
solmax wrote:this one is hard to argue, but it simply feels not good when using the pinky for cycling.
Same goes for piano players, still, Not all keys can be under the thumb.
solmax wrote:and if you overshoot the mode
Yes, if you do something wrong then it's more work. Same goes if you press the E but ment the R or any other key. I find it a none reason. Don't do it wrong is the simple solution. And I mean this seriously.
solmax wrote:now using discrete hotkeys for each transform mode is easy to learn
You probably missed out the discussion on why it's the G for translation. But fact is 1 key is easier to learn then 3.

Now Grandpa is going to tell a little story: When the pose mode was introduced in blender the TAB cycled truw the new modes, I hated it, and got it changed (haha). But there was no visual feedback on what mode blender was in, so I should remember it, or go to the new mode with trial and error. In the widget case there is a big fat widget right in your face! Surely this is a clear indication on how often you should hit the advance key.
It's not that I'm such a favour for the ctrl key, it's just that I find the argumentation against it pretty weak.

hahaha, sorry, i read this part again "a change from R to G involves 5(!) CTRL strokes with my poor pinky"...
5x if you are lucky, 'cause if you miss it the second time it's 7 times. Then again, nobody forces you to use your bad pinky, just use your index finger and you can see the R widget about 20 times per second if you practice a little.

gendou
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Post by gendou » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:03 pm

Here's the second proposal I'm posting. The last one got some positive discussion and one complaint from a european user. Here's one I borrowed from Realsoft 3D. It seems that some of the higher apps (not necessarily RS, it's got issues) have the multi-widget. This is probably the best option instead of having a laundry list of hotkeys to switch modes and still maintaining the existing GSR keys.

Image

Here you can see another multi-widget. The difference in this one is that the Move handles are the entire X,Y or Z axis. Scaling is done by grabbing only the tip. Scaling or moving on a 2-axis plane could be accomplished by the existing Ctrl+Axis handle. Rotation, as expected, is done by grabbing the circles. To move the mesh freeform (using the coordinates perpendicular to the View) you grab the mesh itself, no need to switch modes. Adding a one hotkey popup menu (like Vertex, Edge, Face) or a header menu listing the different transform orientations, such as Local, Global, Normal, etc. would provide the different ways to transform.

If you want to move the pivot point, grab the pivot point itself (the junction of all 3 axes) and drag it. Moving the pivot without moving the mesh is a feature I sometimes wish blender had.
If you want more complex pivot transformations such as Rotate or Move on 1 or 2 axes, you enter the "global" Rotate mode by pressing a toolbar button (which, in Realsoft, gives you a drop-down menu for choosing Geometry, Handles, Texture, and other stuff pertaining to RS), selecting Handles (which does not move the geometry) then using the widget itself to reposition it. When you leave Rotate mode, the pivot remains where you placed it and becomes the new pivot point for the object.

The easiest way to make everyone happy is to use an efficient multi-widget you can turn on or off with different transform orientation modes. This preserves the old GSR keys and utilizes the new transform modes.

I, like many others, am not a coder, so I can only make suggestions and hope that the actual developers read them, then hope they take something useful from my, and others, proposals. This is a big change to blender and it's probably going to end up as a love/hate thing for most people.

Gendou

gendou
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Post by gendou » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:12 pm

By the way, I was playing with the softbodies + collision objects last night and I have a question. Is there any way to set the collision object or the SB object so that when the softbody contacts it, it does NOT go through the collision objects's mesh? I read that it uses the "Face normal" for calculating collisions, but it doesn't stop when hitting the face, it passes through it, albeit slower. I wanted to know if you can set the collision object and softbody to react like moving your hand through a piece of cloth, meaning, your hand makes the cloth move, but the cloth doesn't pass through your hand. ? Know what I mean? Other than that, the SB function is pretty awesome so far, I'm interested to see what the final version is like, because without full collision (not passing through) on objects, it will limit some use of the terrific new SB feature.

Thanks for the hard work!

Gendou

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:33 pm

I heard they went mad at Pixar dev. when the next request was to move the hand truw a gap in the cloth :)

Zsolt
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Post by Zsolt » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:21 pm

theeth: thanks!

My two cents:
- I seem to like Ctrl cycling more and more. It just seems better to use one key, which also just happens to be in an easy to remember place, rather than using three different ones, scattered across the keyboard. Seems that this really is a love/hate thing.
- About softbodies:
My suggestion would be to have a similar implementation to the existing particle systems. IE: you set the a frame number for the start of the motion (mathematically: the "t=0", when the initial condition is true). Right now, it starts any time you press Alt-A, or press the ANIM button to render. Probably the biggest problem here: you can't render stills!! You could also set it to a negative number, if you already want your flag to wave in the first frame.

gendou: uhh, for me it doesn't pass through the object, a piece f cloth for example stays on top of a colission object, or slides off it, it doesn't pass through it. However, only the vertices are calculated, not the edges, which mean the edges sometimes pass through the object, this is a known issue (check the Wiki). Another problem is self-intersection.

solmax
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Post by solmax » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:18 pm

You probably missed out the discussion on why it's the G for translation. But fact is 1 key is easier to learn then 3.
i don't really care why it's G: it's easy to reach and it works, that's enough for now :) learning 1 key with ONE function is easier, but what if the one key does have multiple functions? advantage gone. i think that it's much easier for the brain/hand to map a position on the keyboard to a certain function rather than the count of keystrokes.

i seem to make more mistakes using ctrl and cycling than when pressing discrete keys. on the other hand i learn quick and get used to new software or shortcuts pretty fast. and the best thing: i accept changes if i see a benefit. BUT: in this particular case i don't see one single advantage over the first implementation! so i might not have the killer arguments against it, but noone seems to have one single GOOD argument for it.

the discussion becomes pointless if your only goal is to tell me that my arguments do not convince you.
Then again, nobody forces you to use your bad pinky, just use your index finger and you can see the R widget about 20 times per second if you practice a little.
my index finger is usually over "E, R or G". ctrl is pretty far away. so my pinky is still faster. and, i see absolutely no point in cycling at a rate of 60 Hz.

Bellorum
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Post by Bellorum » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:54 pm

*text removed* This silly quarrel ends her
Last edited by Bellorum on Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

gendou
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Post by gendou » Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:20 am

I hope someone involved in the development is looking at this thread for feedback and suggestions. I doubt it, since joeri and bellorum have successfully turned it into a kindergarten shouting match between themselves. thanks.

DYeater
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Post by DYeater » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:18 am

My own two cents on the collision detection. it seems to work ok for spheres, but put a cube in there and the corners break through the soft body object. UV Spheres slow it waaay down, but Ico spheres aren't so bad, and as said, the collision detection seems to work better. But "drop" a "cloth" on a cube with deflection set and the corners break through.

I love the way this is going, just thought you would like my observations.

theeth
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Post by theeth » Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:10 am

gendou wrote:I hope someone involved in the development is looking at this thread for feedback and suggestions. I doubt it, since joeri and bellorum have successfully turned it into a kindergarten shouting match between themselves. thanks.
Don't worry...

Martin
Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans.
- John Lennon

Bellorum
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Post by Bellorum » Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:41 am

I hope someone involved in the development is looking at this thread for feedback and suggestions. I doubt it, since joeri and bellorum have successfully turned it into a kindergarten shouting match between themselves. thanks.
Sorry about that. Removed my last post, to end this silly argument once and for all.
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

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