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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:09 pm
by HiNMity
I dont like it either so the discussion aint over, cycling for so important functions is not fast workflow. But as i understood this is how we are going to access the transformation handles until we get customizable keybindings. It will do for now :) it is a important feature and i thank the developers for taking it to their harts to code it for blender.

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:18 pm
by Bellorum
HiNMity wrote:cycling for so important functions is not fast workflow. But as i understood this is how we are going to access the transformation handles until we get customizable keybindings.
Nope. Cycling has been dropped (thank you!). You use either ctrl+space (envoking a selection menu), or ctrl+alt+g/r/s. The latter is blender's interpretation of the famous game "Twister" :roll:

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 10:31 pm
by SamAdam
wow, the text object is very, very buggy.

there are bugs in the width slider, (it only works after you have switched into and out of 3d, iirc), the font loading (we need a real time font browser), et.c.

there are whole bunch of them.

could someone look the area over?

in fact, i can't load a font!
any of them!

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 11:12 pm
by Bellorum
SamAdam wrote:in fact, i can't load a font!
any of them!
***International disabled. I couldn't get it to work***

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:49 am
by gaiamuse
About the hotkey widgets:

I prefer cycling through the CTL key better than the CTL+ALT+G/S/R combination. I have just tried the latter and I have to use two hands to translate or rotate. I fail to see how this is better workflow. More keystrokes for a single operation is prone to more errors by the user statistically. Using the latter, a user must use three keystrokes, plus put one hand in a weird contortion or use two hands. Using the single CTL key fewer keystrokes are needed as a user may only need to hit the key once or twice to get what they want, not to mention leaving the hand less stressed.

Also, a user only needs to remember to use one key as oppose to remembering a three key combination for each operation. A single key makes it easier for a new user to learn.

I will never use the CTL+ALT+G/S/R keystrokes. It is too cumbersome and I will be prone to errors. I will use the icons or the CTL + Spacebar (thank you coders for putting that in there!)

gaiamuse

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:39 pm
by SamAdam
Bellorum wrote:
SamAdam wrote:in fact, i can't load a font!
any of them!
***International disabled. I couldn't get it to work***
really?????

yeah, but i am using the default fonts, and loading arial.ttf in english, and i don't see where i am using international fonts.

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:56 pm
by Bellorum
SamAdam wrote:
Bellorum wrote:
SamAdam wrote:in fact, i can't load a font!
any of them!
***International disabled. I couldn't get it to work***
really?????

yeah, but i am using the default fonts, and loading arial.ttf in english, and i don't see where i am using international fonts.
Well, I never bother with changing with fonts, but it seems like you don't get a choice(?) Probably the same code or something..

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:06 pm
by SamAdam
Bellorum wrote:
SamAdam wrote:
Bellorum wrote:
really?????

yeah, but i am using the default fonts, and loading arial.ttf in english, and i don't see where i am using international fonts.
Well, I never bother with changing with fonts, but it seems like you don't get a choice(?) Probably the same code or something..
yes, possibly.

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:08 pm
by kxs
gaiamuse wrote:About the hotkey widgets:

I prefer cycling through the CTL key better than the CTL+ALT+G/S/R combination.
One key is better then three keys combo, but not CTRL, because as mentioned before it is commonly used with other keys. So what do you think about "/"?
Cycle with / of course. It would be easy, simple, no long fingers needed :wink:
And it is not a shortcut yet as far as I know.

p.s. It would be less confusing if you changed the CTRL+Spacebar to CTRL+/ then

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:50 pm
by Bellorum
kxs wrote:
gaiamuse wrote:About the hotkey widgets:

I prefer cycling through the CTL key better than the CTL+ALT+G/S/R combination.
One key is better then three keys combo, but not CTRL, because as mentioned before it is commonly used with other keys. So what do you think about "/"?
Cycle with / of course. It would be easy, simple, no long fingers needed :wink:
And it is not a shortcut yet as far as I know.

p.s. It would be less confusing if you changed the CTRL+Spacebar to CTRL+/ then
Yeah, that's one of those keys that are differently placed on different keyboards. So, not recommended.

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:21 pm
by ysvry
CTRL to switch and icon cliked with mouse is good work flow u need to use the mouse anyway to rotate or scale . Dont see what the fush is about. Its a great improvement.

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:48 pm
by DYeater
Bellorum wrote:
kxs wrote:
gaiamuse wrote:About the hotkey widgets:

I prefer cycling through the CTL key better than the CTL+ALT+G/S/R combination.
One key is better then three keys combo, but not CTRL, because as mentioned before it is commonly used with other keys. So what do you think about "/"?
Cycle with / of course. It would be easy, simple, no long fingers needed :wink:
And it is not a shortcut yet as far as I know.

p.s. It would be less confusing if you changed the CTRL+Spacebar to CTRL+/ then
Yeah, that's one of those keys that are differently placed on different keyboards. So, not recommended.
Not that I have an opinion either way, but the "/" character ... although it may be placed in different locations depending on the machine ... is still used quite a bit and should be easy to find by any user on any machine. It may not be easy to access, but I guarantee (if they use windows), they know where it's at. :D

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 8:43 pm
by Bellorum
DYeater wrote:
Bellorum wrote:
kxs wrote: One key is better then three keys combo, but not CTRL, because as mentioned before it is commonly used with other keys. So what do you think about "/"?
Cycle with / of course. It would be easy, simple, no long fingers needed :wink:
And it is not a shortcut yet as far as I know.

p.s. It would be less confusing if you changed the CTRL+Spacebar to CTRL+/ then
Yeah, that's one of those keys that are differently placed on different keyboards. So, not recommended.
Not that I have an opinion either way, but the "/" character ... although it may be placed in different locations depending on the machine ... is still used quite a bit and should be easy to find by any user on any machine. It may not be easy to access, but I guarantee (if they use windows), they know where it's at. :D
On a swedish keyboard you have to press shift+7 to get '/'. So the proposed combination of ctrl+/ is a wee bit tricky for me :wink: It's even worse if I were to use the one by the numpad :P Besides, cyclling still sucks in a major way.

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 9:26 pm
by kisolre
This is a bug I think: create new scene, double default cube, move it aside, add "TrackTo" constraints to both cubes and point them to the other one. Like if you want to make a hydraulick cylinder and piston. Now select both cubes only and try to double them (shift-d or alt-d - doesn't mather). Under 20050502 windows bfblender and tuhopuu3, 20050511 bfblender bulds both copied cubes and copies dissapear ?!?!?! They are not visible in OOPS window too. Mesh data is there, objects are there but you can not select them. Under 0502 they instantly dissapear but under 0511 they dissapear when you pertform any operation after that.

This does not happen under 2.36. But... under 2.36 if you have tracker and tracked object and double them together the new tracker tracks old tracked object. Now when you double them together new tracker tracks the new tracked object. which is preferred behavior for me (if you make a complex arm with some hydrocylinders and want to double it, ...)

edit: It's more buggy than that. Just tryed what will happend if doubling only one of the cubes. Same! then tryed to double the lamp. Guess what - same! Camera - same. Really weird :(

Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 1:57 am
by gaiamuse
Bellorum wrote:
DYeater wrote:
Bellorum wrote: Yeah, that's one of those keys that are differently placed on different keyboards. So, not recommended.
Not that I have an opinion either way, but the "/" character ... although it may be placed in different locations depending on the machine ... is still used quite a bit and should be easy to find by any user on any machine. It may not be easy to access, but I guarantee (if they use windows), they know where it's at. :D
On a swedish keyboard you have to press shift+7 to get '/'. So the proposed combination of ctrl+/ is a wee bit tricky for me :wink: It's even worse if I were to use the one by the numpad :P Besides, cyclling still sucks in a major way.
First of all thank you for your feedback. It is much appreciated.
I am still waiting for a logical explanation as to why cycling sucks. I think this is the crux to the debate. I have tried to provide a logical explanation as to why cycling with one key for several visual options is better than a three key combination for individual options, ie, there is less keystrokes involved, it is easier to manipulate, and less prone to errors.

Cycling with one key may be uncoventional, but open source development does not always have to meet convention. It is there to also be innovative. I am a bit concern that unconventional ideas that may be logical and efficient are thrown out do to "conventional" perceptions. It may be that the future development of Blender could require the use of cycling with one key for visual options as a viable alternative or solution. Who knows, maybe some of the big commercial apps might considerate it an option.

About the '/' key:
I still prefer to use the Ctl key to cycle as I would not want to have other users with different keyboards have to press two or more keys to cycle with '/' key. It defeats the purpose of using one key to cycle. Though some people think the CTL key should not be used because it is commonly used, it for that very reason that the CTL key could be used. Users are already familier with it. Also, the '/' is used quite a bit, so I don't think the reason is valid enough to not use the CTL key because it is often used. Most keys are used on the keyboard. It's a matter of finding one that is easily accessible for the majority of different keyboards. CTL is such a key.

About CTL + Spacebar:

I really like this option and hope it doesn't change for this release. The hand is already positioned to use CTL, SHIFT, ALT etc so it is easily manipulated. The menu provides all the options and is very useful even working with the icons, especially for turning all the widgets on at once.

In conclusion, I hope I have not stirred up old wounds or created new ones. I have tried to provide another perspective with some logical reasons that I don't think was clear in my previous posts. I was so excited about widgets.

I cannot emphasize enough of my appreciation to the coders and Blender community in general for providing a wonderful, innovative 3d package for anyone to learn for free. Everyone looks forward to every release and the next one will be relished by us all!

gaiamuse