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joeri
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Post by joeri » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:50 pm

rubbleman:
I do not agree with big parts of your post.

What is it that upsets you? The namegiving, or the arrogance or that people say bad things about elysiun?
I think your post totally bypasses my feelings about what the blender community should look like.

"Not hurt you at all in meantime to blend a bit with Blenderheads. Only disease you get is enthusiasm. "

Well; I'm the biggest blenderhead here...
And I think you are missing the point. The professionals who use blender are all bigger blenderhead's then the ones at elysiun. There food depends on it. Most of them are past the enthusiastic stage and want to pass on that enthusiasm with deeds (not just talk about it) and need help to do so.

-Help in the form of educational material. Not to learn blender but to teach it.

-Help in the form of sharing experiences with other people who make work for clients.

-Help in the form of questions answerd that get the job done, and not on how others feel that their work looks like.

-Help in the form of programmers who can fix bugs or write features today, not for the next release.

-Help in the form of job opportunities for artists and programmers.

Help that Elysiun is not giving them.


"This software is made by community for community"
Interesting,... But not very true. At least not in my point of view.

If BlenderArtists want to facilitate a pro section then I'm all for it, but I don't think they have the right mindset to do so. Nor the right 'drive' and speed.

But what would the advantages for the pro's be if it's hosted at BA?
And what would the disadvantages be?
Last edited by joeri on Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:50 pm

B@rt wrote:
broken wrote: if it's going to be anywhere, I think it should be here.
Why is that? Blender.org is all about development and not about users, isn't it?

B@rt
Time to change that is long overdue in my opinion.
(Btw. wasn't the current front page to be a temp?
Is blender.org getting as slug as elysiun? I'm I sensored at elysiun for nothing?)

It's just rediculous that blender.org does not host users.
What is in the press release of project Orange ?: ...And project Orange is to bring a closer interaction between developers and users...

"Daily interaction of artists and developers can not only result in proof of concepts, but also in research of innovative solutions for the whole range of tools artists can deploy."

Hahaha,...

It's not that blender.org does not want users on there site, it's just that it does not want the elysiun forum on there site... But who dares say that?

As a matter of fact I'm wrong,... with http://orange.blender.org/ it's got some of their finest users on their site.

And that's what this is about in my opinion:
How to shape the form in such a way that the people beyond the Oww and Aaaw of blender can get help with and about blender.

Unfortunatly, I'm just a designer with little knolledge about educational concepts, not much organisational skills... And most of the time with the wrong tone of voice.
Last edited by joeri on Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

B@rt
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Post by B@rt » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:58 pm

joeri wrote:
B@rt wrote:
broken wrote: if it's going to be anywhere, I think it should be here.
Why is that? Blender.org is all about development and not about users, isn't it?

B@rt
Time to change that is long overdue in my opinion.
I agree. I never liked this development-centric blender.org. Apart from the forum on Elysiun there is no real community site for Blender. (I won't even *start* about BlenderArtist.org ;-) )
joeri wrote: (Btw. wasn't the current front page to be a temp?
Is blender.org getting as slug as elysiun? I'm I sensored at elysiun for nothing?)
That's what you get when you (the Blender Foundation) rely solely on volunteers and don't take the time to properly work on improving a site. I've given up..

B@rt
Last edited by B@rt on Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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joeri
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Post by joeri » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:07 pm

B@rt wrote:I've given up..
Ai, that is bad news.

B@rt
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Post by B@rt » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:12 pm

Well, that wasn't really correct now that I read it. It should be: I have given up working on blender.org and intend to stop working for the bf-webcontent group. Instead I'll put my time in my own projects, some of which are Blender related as well. I do like this pro-users idea though so I wouldn't mind exchanging some ideas with you. Are you coming to the Orange dinner next week?

B@rt
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LetterRip
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Post by LetterRip » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:46 pm

B@rt,

Ton sort of mentioned that in the last meeting that you plan on retiring from bf-webcontent - any recommendations for a successor (you can email me if you like...) ?

LetterRip

ilac
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 8:24 am

Post by ilac » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:49 pm

Hi Joeri,

I'm all for such a forum and definetly feel the need for it. Your second post summerizes very well what I would expect from such a forum. This would also help culture a centralised professional Blender community from which Blender should benefit considerably.

It would be great to be able to discuss actual work without having a lot of kids/fanatics/zealots around. (Rubbleman: 'kids' is a reference to attitude - not age) Just take a look at the Maxon thread on cgtalk about the new hair module. Went totally out of hand the second the Blenderheads started posting. They might have had the best of intentions but such unprofessional attitudes reflect really badly on the Blender userbase and as a result Blender suffers too. :(

The NDA gallery is actually quite interesting. How would that work? And how feasible is it on an internet forum - even a paid and private one?

Regards,
Fabrizio

ps. B@rt, I think you left a 'no' out when you said:
" Apart from the forum on Elysiun there is real community site for Blender."
I agree (No offence to Timmy and those who helped him cos they did a really great job over the years :D Thanks guys!) A serious alternative would be great though.

B@rt
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Post by B@rt » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:52 pm

LetterRip wrote:B@rt,

Ton sort of mentioned that in the last meeting that you plan on retiring from bf-webcontent - any recommendations for a successor (you can email me if you like...) ?

LetterRip
Oh, he did eh? Funny that he does have the time to talk to you guys but that he cannot find the time to answer the email in which I mentioned this to him.

Sorry but I don't have any recommendations.

B@rt
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B@rt
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Post by B@rt » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:53 pm

ilac wrote:ps. B@rt, I think you left a 'no' out when you said:
" Apart from the forum on Elysiun there is real community site for Blender."
.
Ehm, yes :) I'll fix that..

B@rt
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rubbleman
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Post by rubbleman » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:42 pm

I write a long thoughtful reply with my old man slow typing then it times out and doesn't post :evil:
I can't be bothered redoing all for you sorry.
I am very sad to see no one agrees with me.
I feel sorry for Blender you don't give opportunity for young persons to do better with guidance. Young people are inexperienced but also lively and fun. They can't help be themselves. I don't see need to exclude or straitjacket to satisfy big adults with important titles and fat cheque books.
You guys want to own your code and look like company now looks like Blender hit big time and forget about community.
This is not Blender as I understand it. Anyone makes code and tuts if like.
I hear before Ton talk about sharing everything.
You guys all pull in different direction at blanket and tear off piece for own use. You need to find a way to be hybrid in cg commercial world.
I think you guys have important meeting and set out path for Blender.
I suggest first step is to employ someone like Letterrip full time to be organiser with power to make decisions. If Blender community spirit is just illusion made by expert coders to suit themselves while they work on private hobby you say so please. I stop thinking I part of something special and go do something else.
Last edited by rubbleman on Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ilac
Posts: 131
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Post by ilac » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:58 pm

rubbleman: You seem to miss the point - which in itself explains the necessity of such a forum....

This is not about NOT sharing. On the contrary. It's actually to help people share in a more meaningful manner and attract people who have so far been put off by the immaturity currently found (sometimes) on available forums. I doubt people who are currently sharing on currently available forums will stop doing so because they are now also attending another forum.

rubbleman
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Post by rubbleman » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:19 pm

If you say to me we need an administrative branch of Blender to deal with salesman and executives come calling at the door I agree with you. Also wouldn't hurt to handle publicity and publications.
Sometimes they require confidentiality and access to insiders- no problem.
Contact official blender office for representative to talk serious business.

If you say we make special learning place with course work run by official designated teacher I am in agreement. Have rules for conduct just like in classroom.Issue graduation certificate of learning in blender to those who complete.

However I am much against discrimination to achieve acceptable face in eyes of others. I don't think we need to create another exclusive forum for look and feel nice atmosphere. How about actually try to improve Elysiun for a start. Mature moderator step in more, better layout and purpose to stop squabbles, etc.

rcas
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Post by rcas » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:55 pm

To rubbleman:

I think you are looking at it the wrong way.

Blender as been so far just focused on Hobbiests and Kids. Meaning that the Professionals, Teachers and Organizations have been left aside.
The aim of this is to create a place for these people, people that are left behind with what exists now.

Blender.org Forum is for Developers to gather around and help each other with coding for Blender and also for Users to request features.
Elysiun or BlenderArtists is a place for Artists to show their work and users of all kind to get help and show their creations.

But:
- There is no forum where professionals can get help from other professionals with real life tested solutions.
- There is no place for teachers to talk to other teachers or share their knowledge. Tutorials are one thing, but actual class material is another.
- There is no place where companies can post job openings for artists or developers. You can use Elysiun yes, but most times it doesn't cut that deep into the professionals that use Blender.
- There is no place for Companies to get into Blender and show themselft.

If "Blender" wants to get past hobbiest and kids and also be part of the professional market, this must be created.

You get it wrong, the things you refer to already exist, but a place for professionals do not, so this is a Thread on what makes sense for professionals.
And one more thing, if you create such areas, hobbiests and kids will gain from it, I will show why.

With a professional area we can:
- Get more features added to Blender with Companies sponsoring new features.
- Get more professionals working with Blender, thus spreading Blender more, meaning more jobs in the Future for the now Kids and Hobbiests.
- Get better Learning material for Teachers
- Get better E-Learning solutions and material
- Get more Companies interested in Blender, meaning more jobs related to Blender
- More developers doing new paid features with Blender, meaning Blender will evolve faster and with more and more developers for it

There is so much to gain and barely anything to loose.
Isn't this the best for Blender ?


-- Rui --
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

Edmond
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:57 pm

Post by Edmond » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:04 pm

-Help in the form of educational material. Not to learn blender but to teach it.

-Help in the form of sharing experiences with other people who make work for clients.

-Help in the form of questions answerd that get the job done, and not on how others feel that their work looks like.

-Help in the form of programmers who can fix bugs or write features today, not for the next release.

-Help in the form of job opportunities for artists and programmers.
Great! :o
Edmond

rubbleman
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Post by rubbleman » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:29 pm

ok rcas I hear you viewpoint but I find myself not convinced is good for grass roots because I think they feel slighted by this.
How you decide who is acceptable person to attend there?
You don't want me looking in there obviously or existing posters from Elysiun because we liable to be embarassment.
To me this move makes fundamental shift in Blender philosophy.
OK so Blender content arrives at high enough capability to be useful for commercial standard projects. However Blender organisation is still based on volunteers. How are you going to meet with constant demand of student group, professional users, teachers etc. for interface with a like professional. If man like Edmond turns up here maybe he has to wait until next day for message to relay from other side of world.
What you guys are proposing is like major business without foundation for.
OK much to gain but no real ability to deliver from part time status.
What is it that you say if Blender want to get past hobbiest and kids?
Is this what Blender is actually about making it as quasi pro company?
I don't understand what is wrong with hobbiests and kids.
If you guys like to lay out for me exactly what Blender is to become that is nice.
I think bigger decisions and implications being made with this issue than necessarily realised. Again though not my say and I know I should not really be in this forum. May be though I be protagonist that makes ideas well examined

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