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rcas
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Post by rcas » Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:00 am

To rubbleman.

Blender is for all people and this means also professionals that use Blender for a living.
From your point of view it looks like Blender should only be for Hobbiests and Kids or people new to 3D and that they should use commercial applications if they want to make Business with it.

This won't kill anything that exists so far, it will be just adding another area for the Blender Community.

If you want to share your work you can go to Elysiun, if you want to talk about Development you can head over to this Forum.
But then you will also add a new area, if you want to use Blender professionaly, post a job offer, post a Bounty for a new Feature you can head over to this new area.

Kids and Hobbiests can use Elysiun and if they want to switch to a more professional area they will have that possibility, no one is keeping anyone out.
Now, in this area there will be more strict rules for posting and the access to several other areas in it should be gradual. Also, access to this should require full information about the person, meaning address and other things.

Also, there should be an area covered by an NDA where professionals could post their work and get help from other professionals when concerning to problems they might find.

Now, if you let a kid access a NDA area he might not read what an NDA is a just post other peoples work out in the open, causing serious damage to the person who did that job.
And keep in mind that professionals want help solve things, not having someone putting them down or giving comments on aomething (for this there is elysiun).

Again I say, this is a new area, none of the existing areas will be dropped or killed by it, this is just to give professionals their own corner. Developers have this Forum, Hobbiests and Kids have Elysiun, so Professionals and Companies should also have their own place.


-- Rui --
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

rubbleman
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Post by rubbleman » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:15 am

ok rcas that sounds better when you say more details.
I have no special need to have pro access but maybe I like to see some of what happens or available in there a bit like I view commit logs out of interest. Maybe have first stage access to visitor with address just to be a bit friendly to aspiring artists with eye to graduate from Elysiun.
However that leaves casual persons like myself at Elysiun and place is not ideal. Probably many older posters there may like to see a bit more public aware 'attitude' although this won't be popular with just hangout with fellows posters. Are you proposing better arrangemnet of Elysiun at same time?

I don't really see how you make Blender meet commercial world expectations with part time Blenders but you know best I guess.
I still like someone to express what Blender is to become sometime though.
I guess when comes down to it this is Tons software with a core group of coders making most contributions. Rest of use just hangers on and fans.
Myself if I was Blenderhead developer or script writer I may want to stop making contributions because my fun weekend hobby work that I was happy to share with Blenderheads may be picked up on by commercial company and contribute to their profit in next movie.
I find all that I work on out of love of Blender in past is gift to commerial project. Can you have any control over open source software use to return small fee? particularly if pro person say wants help or modification? I don't know if special software developed by pro for their purposes is necessarily of much use to hobbiest or they are that keen to share commercial sensitive secret with everyone afterward.
Anyway I stop making posts here and let you continue on as usual.
I cannot hide my small disappointment at passing of Blender spirit that got persons this far. I feel not so much of family now as just hobbiest B grade category user lost in big ambitions oh well :cry:

LetterRip
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Post by LetterRip » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:04 am

Myself if I was Blenderhead developer or script writer I may want to stop making contributions because my fun weekend hobby work that I was happy to share with Blenderheads may be picked up on by commercial company and contribute to their profit in next movie.
Why would that bother a scripter any more than a small movie house or individual user using it? Probably 95% or more of users give nothing back to the community.

If a movie house starts to make serious use of it, there is some possibility of them contributing back, just as some professional game developers are contributing scripts back.

LetterRip

rcas
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Post by rcas » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:24 am

To rubbleman.

This is a Community, you already have several people who use Blender professionaly, check out "Friday or another day" Movie, this was Done with Blender and it was used by a Company, in the end they have made public and available to everyone several scripts they used to make the productions, most of them were very usefull.

You also have some other guys that own a Render Farm and made it available (for a price) for Blender, but at the same time both of them were hoping to help out in solving problems in Blender as in developing code. They already said they had several patches to supply that fixed some Bugs.

What I can say is that usually people that use Blender in a Comercial environment tend to give something back to the Community, so they can be part of this "Community" also and not being pointed out as "persona non grata".

I believe that there are positive and negative things with Comercial use of Blender, but both issues seem to balance well in the end and usually everyone gains from it.
And I also keep in mind what Ton said at one Roundtable in Blender Conference "make your companies, provide services with and for Blender, make money from Blender", from his point of view, as he explained, the Blender Foundation is there to keep Blender free and keep it growing, so people should really focus on providing services using Blender or using it for Producing Movies or Animations.

I know it may sound nasty that someone waists his time coding for Blender and then a Company comes and uses it for their own purpose, Movie or whatever. But you should also look at what it can bring. Companies also tend to need new features and can't really wait for a new version, so they may be up for a Bounty, paying for the addition of a new feature or more then one feature.
Maybe the Company has their own developers and they get part of the Blender Developers team and add several new features to Blender for in house usage and in the next version it will be available to all.
Even more, most Companies would rather support the Foundation giving out some cash instead of providing anything else. This cash can then be used for projects such as Orange, projects that help Blender grow.

I say this to point out that there isn't always negative aspects to this and usually there is a balance from both positive and negative aspects.

The sense of Community should not disappear nor should we do anything to make it diminuish, quite the opposite we must make it grow in all senses.
And for this to happen we sure need everyones opinions, thoughts and ideas.

Please don't be discouraged by this nor feel left apart, you will also be able to access this new area and surely you will feel it is a positive addition to the already available areas.

Again, this new area is to be available to all, but with a focus on Professionals, Companies, Organizations, Institutions and Teachers, helping them in sharing information and such. This doesn't mean that anyone will be left out, just that people that go there must know the focus of that specific place and don't go against that area policy.


Anyway, I've been posting mostly my idea of such a place, I don't really want to offend joeri the starter of the Thread.
Joeri, please don't get upset if I may sound like steeling your idea, I'm just pointing out what I have in mind for such a place, hope it is in sync with your vision :) .


-- Rui --
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

rubbleman
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Post by rubbleman » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:43 am

Letterrip I would contribute if I could :?
I start trying to make contribution in Elysiun with small say about my thoughts about getting organised but not meet with lot of favour.
I also make small help to others with xp troubles and critique of artists works from my armchair view but not a lot of favour.
I also try to shape up conversation into something productive when moderator asleep for not a lot of favour.
I make jokes and support and thanks at Orange although apparently may be noise to some people and not a lot of favour.
I make guest appearance here to voice my concern and not a lot of favour.
If I able to I write code for may be not a lot of favour :lol:
I would try to make tut but by time I am finished it is well out of date.
I get chopped off in posting because I am so slow :wink:
I try you see but where ever I go not really help.
I just have to be out here as silent and useless 95% until I finally called home to account for my actions or lack of for past 80+ years :roll:
I hope I find a little bit more favour...

rubbleman
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Post by rubbleman » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:45 am

rcas thank you for comforting words and explaining to me.
As I understand now then Blender is very capable free software made by 5% very smart dedicated users mostly with mind to make application of pro user standard. It is subsidised and also makes modest income from shop and may attract income or grant from joint ventures with commercial world. This will be used for improvements for which large group of humble user persons will indirectly benefit in some way if only to watch most talented make another movie... The large group is made of obsessive hobbiests, unwashed kids and one pesty fading old man :D
In most part then Blender is mixture of part time company and club meet.
All slightly out of synch and moving in random directions never quite sure what is actual constitution or even agreeing to need one but managing to cover bases somehow most of the time.
Hmmm tough for orderly old person like myself to handle in one reading.
You have my approval :roll: to do as like to set up pro area provided not make exclusive elite sub group who contemptive of Elysiun users and cause resentment. I like you guys to be inclusive, accepting and tolerant of young Blenderers with this. As Lee says young people deserve chance to fill big shoes even if unsteady on feet.
thanks for your time
rubbleman

joeri
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Post by joeri » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:23 pm

to rubbleman:
Your view on blender is total out of sync with my view of blender.
I think this is because you spend to much time at Elysiun.
And because I'm riding this blendertrain to long to jump off now.

Blender is far more then it's community, don't limit yourself to that fragment of it.

And as Rui says: The community can expand in many more directions.

For now, it's just a post. I did not see any paper or wiki on what blenderPro should look like. And what support it can get from the BF.

I personaly am glad to see so much possitive response to the idea.
But I don't see it happening just yet, unless the BF gives it an impulse.
I will know more about that next week.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:39 pm

"Joeri, please don't get upset if I may sound like steeling your idea, I'm just pointing out what I have in mind for such a place, hope it is in sync with your vision. "

I thinks your ideas are better then mine.
Looks like you gave it more thought then I did.

I'm not sure at what extend it should be Open. I would not mind if it had closed parts, but I don't know how this is in tune with blender.
I don't agree with rubbleman that it should be fully open just because the blender source code is. The site should appeal to the audience that it's for, and if that means it needs a paid, full adress and life website with portfolio and cv (to name the most closed I can imagine now) to post a comment; then so be it. I rather have a small group of pro's then a second Elysiun.

(Just look at Orange. That's not fully open. And for the parts that it is it must be very tough for the members to write in the blog, because they just know that there are people out there that will know exactly what they are doing wrong whithout knowing any of the circumstances it's made in.
Very brave btw.)

Ofcourse we can think about a way on how to incorparate this into Elysiun. But sofar I did not hear any arguments on why this would be better, I think it would be better to incorparate this with the blender.org site. But even for that we need to make sure that the BF has the right intensions with the blender.org site, because what I hear and see does not give me that impression.

I even think it would be better for the blender.org site if it had closed sections. So information could get more focused and targeted at the right audience.

Anyway,.... back to work :) Got to finish this thing before tommorow night.

rcas
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Post by rcas » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:15 am

joeri wrote:"Joeri, please don't get upset if I may sound like steeling your idea, I'm just pointing out what I have in mind for such a place, hope it is in sync with your vision. "

I thinks your ideas are better then mine.
Looks like you gave it more thought then I did.
Great then.
joeri wrote: I'm not sure at what extend it should be Open. I would not mind if it had closed parts, but I don't know how this is in tune with blender.
I don't agree with rubbleman that it should be fully open just because the blender source code is. The site should appeal to the audience that it's for, and if that means it needs a paid, full adress and life website with portfolio and cv (to name the most closed I can imagine now) to post a comment; then so be it. I rather have a small group of pro's then a second Elysiun.
There should be levels of access and also several content should be closed to certain groups, having these groups the ability to share it with anyone they saw fit.
joeri wrote: Ofcourse we can think about a way on how to incorparate this into Elysiun. But sofar I did not hear any arguments on why this would be better, I think it would be better to incorparate this with the blender.org site. But even for that we need to make sure that the BF has the right intensions with the blender.org site, because what I hear and see does not give me that impression.
I still think this should be a separate place since it really has a different focus then Elysiun / Blender Artists or even Blender / Blender Foundation website.


-- Rui --
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

rubbleman
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Post by rubbleman » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:48 am

joeri, I am not involved in Blender like you so my view is of impartial browser. To me Blender is organisational mess , large play at artist group talking badly together, few talented people not extending themselves artistically and inner circle of weekend programmers working and talking to themselves behind scenes. I find less and less reason to attend anywheres Blender websites.
I already cut member at Elysiun some while ago and now stop Orange too. Honestly despite best of intentions to participate just waste of time. I only pop up here at moment for say for rights for young people to be treated fairly then I be quiet here also. What I say to be helpful makes no difference anyway.You guys off on big adventure to be major cg force in world with part time effort. I just want to have nice community experience and make skillful art. Not much to be found in common.
I continue to use Blender but only visit to read about new scripts, download tuts, see the commit log for interest and thats about it.
I enjoy showing my family my get better works and we get laugh about - particularly I like small children come visit and chatter about making art. Sometime before I expire I like to make very nice accomplished art work as rememberance of rubblemans life for them to have.
Best of luck to you guys. I out here watching and Blending away quietly.
bye :)

LetterRip
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Post by LetterRip » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:18 am

rubbleman,
inner circle of weekend programmers working and talking to themselves behind scenes.
I'm not sure what 'behind the scenes' you are talking about. There is a weekly meeting that is open to anyone to attend, and a weekly summary of the meeting is emailed to the developers list. Many of the developers post to elysiun or to these forums.

Things aren't as easy to get involved as I'd like and there are some organization and communication issues but I don't think it could really think things can be characterized as behind the scenes.

Regarding elysiun - Blender Foundation has zero control over it (asside from Tons and others relationship with the founder etc).

Personally I think it might be a good idea to integrate forums here, especially a professional target forum. However, the big problem with such plans, is that we lack volunteers who have adequate skill, time, and reliability. We have lots of those with 1 and 3, or 1 and 2, and many with a whole lot of 2 :) However generally it takes all three to accomplish things.
You guys off on big adventure to be major cg force in world with part time effort. I just want to have nice community experience and make skillful art. Not much to be found in common.
There really isn't any reason why they should be considered opposing goals. I'm not really sure why you think they are not complementary goals.

I wish you luck with your blending,

LetterRip

grafixsuz
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Post by grafixsuz » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:07 am

FROM A KID:

I am an illustrator, that is how I earn my living. I am a kid in regards to Blender, because I am new at 3d work, as up til now, my work has been solely 2d work with Illustrator, photoshop, and the like.
But I have to agree here with the need to have a site dedicated to professionals who need blender for their daily bread. Though I would not put myself in the position of a professional blender user. in that regard elysiun is just right for me to get my feet wet in the CG world of graphics.

But I think as has been stated, not just here but so many times on the forums, the 'NEED TO HAVE DEDICATED COURSES'and 'PROFESSIONALISM' on the forums and sites.

Elysiun is mostly constructive critz anyway so we KIDS find it useful to help use Blender, basically because there is insufficiant or outdated tutorials or documentation.

If you guys just settled down, I don't think there is any fear of blender being ripped apart, that doesn't make any sense! I can see a few possibilities here, either elysiun starts hosting course ware for the beginning student, blenderheads, whatever, of course, they should be paid , as paid courses will invoke everyone to respect others as they deserve.

3d buzz has a good and working system which offers such.

And then, the professionals who need a site to help in teaching blender and the like as you guys have all stated earlier can be set up at a different site, it doesn't mean segregation, just an appropriate site to fit the needs of it's users. I think you guys underestimate how thankful the ' Community ' is with all your sacrifice and hard work.

I also think, that now blender is catching the spotlight recently, there is truely a desperate need for these types of sites. Blender is going to be more and more popular with every new release, so to afford the needed documents, teaching materials, courses for students and teachers,workshops, discussions between everyone concerned, you will need to set up paid registration fees on any forum that is prepared to set this up, to cover the costs and also pay for fultime staff to monitor and develope such needed things.

But I am still just a kid, in my 30's, a professional in certain areas of the arts, who relies on elysiun for the support I need. Blender and everyone involved just needs to be reasonable about what everyones needs , what everyone is capable of, and what the needs are for the future of this absolutely incredible piece of software.

P.S. Letterman, you are correct 95% of us users don't contribute anything back, mostly either because of accessibility or technological handicaps, but, I can garantee you that everything you do and the other developers do is really helping others to see the need to learn something new in order to help. I for one, am now trying to learn programing so that sometime in the future I too can probably come up with a script or two to help, because of this project. Thank you to all of you!
:D

matt_e
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Post by matt_e » Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:59 am

rubbleman wrote:I already cut member at Elysiun some while ago and now stop Orange too.
There's no need to do that, you haven't offended any of us at Orange, and we always appreciate and enjoy reading your posts.

I don't think anyone is trying to close up blender or take anything away. It's just that the Blender community is bigger (much bigger) than Elysiun, and it would be nice to provide an area for people that don't fit in well at Elysiun to participate. Nobody is trying to take away the free-artist-friendly communities, just provide an addition for other Blender users who aren't so interested in that.

Matt

-efbie-
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Post by -efbie- » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:22 am

Lots of talk, and little getting done.
It is clear that there's interest in a pro blender forum : A friend who works in the game industry saw this thread and mailed me right ahead that we could use our server to host such a forum. Not only hosting, but having such a forum as the main activity of our domain.
By hosting we mean 80Go bandwith and several Go space + email box for users, etc.

So i created a ftp directory on the server : www.mentalwarp.com/~bl/ there is nothing on it atm, but if you mail me, I can grant you an access ( to do serious stuff ).

The adress to the forum would be

www.mentalwarp.com

So the next point is wich software should we put on it ? do you have an idea of a cool package that would have forum / gallery / articles functionality ?

I know some of you want it to be there, but changing the current forum into something cool is a work that is beyond my skills. All i can do is provide a host and install some cms on it, but i think it's better than nothing.

rcas
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Post by rcas » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:34 am

-efbie- wrote:Lots of talk, and little getting done.
It is clear that there's interest in a pro blender forum : A friend who works in the game industry saw this thread and mailed me right ahead that we could use our server to host such a forum. Not only hosting, but having such a forum as the main activity of our domain.
By hosting we mean 80Go bandwith and several Go space + email box for users, etc.

So i created a ftp directory on the server : www.mentalwarp.com/~bl/ there is nothing on it atm, but if you mail me, I can grant you an access ( to do serious stuff ).

The adress to the forum would be

www.mentalwarp.com

If you really don't like the domain name, you can buy another one.

So the next point is wich software should we put on it ? do you have an idea of a cool package that would have forum / gallery / articles functionality ?
This is very cool, but we must have a precise definition first of what to put there.

Also, the base CMS or whatever that will be used doesn't matter that much, if the aim is a professional platform for professionals, then most modules will have to be created by hand to meet our needs.

In order for this to be successfull we need to setup the workflow, access levels we see fit, who are the users and what areas should be created for each type of user and so on.

I can start doing some of this and post here, but I would like to have an idea on how many people would like to contribute to this, and in contribution I mean loosing some night sleep to help get this up.
Do not assume this is something easy and just setup another forum and that's it, if we are to do it might aswell do it right and not end up with something like Elysiun nor something like Blender.org that is quite messed up right now.

Your intentions are good, kudos for that, but bandwidth and space is not really what is needed right now. I also have 8GB space and 90 GB bandwidth in my server right now that is not being used, so that isn't the biggest issue.


-- Rui --
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

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