Why my school decieded not to use blender

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ox
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:01 pm

Post by ox »

edited
Last edited by ox on Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ox
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:01 pm

Post by ox »

edited
Last edited by ox on Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ox
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:01 pm

Post by ox »

Blender is in a transitional mode and is exponentially expanding in user base and development. If there are occasional glitches in the expansion of the user base they are not as significant as not being prepared for the inevitable future of this tremendous software tool.
That's not to say we shouldn't encourage people to use the tool but at some point documentation and software development will reach a precipitous point of irresistability to anyone having there head screwed on straight. Anticipation of the future and preperation for it are very important IMHO. The world is just catching on to open source. Build it. They will come.

misterbone
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:39 pm

Post by misterbone »

I'm new to 3d, and was at a well respected norwegian forum to ask where to start. They recomended Blender as free, good software. I can't speak for everyone else, but that's what made me take a first look at it. The thing that kept me here was the documentation and the graphics I saw on the web. If you want to bundle Blender with OS'es you would need the documentation and tutorials to be as good as possible, not only the program itself.

ScOrPiO
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:00 am
Location: South Africa

Industry standard or not

Post by ScOrPiO »

I'm a reseller/support for pinnacle and canopus digital video editing products. Job description : Digital Video Specialist and Systems Builder. DAMN!
Anyways, to get to the point.
I've played with Avid, Premiere, Edius, Studio, Edition, Commotion, Combustion, AE, LW, Max, Maya, Virtual Light, Strata, Virtual Dub, CAD, Houdini, Digital Illutions and many many more...
Ever noticed that more "industry" standard a app becomes the more stable it becomes? Hollywood is switching back to Unix based os Linux! yea! Why? well, they can customize their appz without licensing and that nonsense. A product is used only if you really need it. I'm starting to refuse to sell Adobe Premiere Pro to clients because they don't use it to its full potential. Also it's a new engine for PPro and I don't trust 1st gen products 'cuz I do the support. I've been playing with blender since 1.8 I think. And NOW since I played with 2.28c and the new 2.3x it kicks ASS!
but, can someone just make a darn disc with plugins and sell it! Just make sure its tested else you'll get flamed. :shock: Did you notice how many plugins Max, Maya, LW and almost everthing else have to make it opperate? It's insane! And Max becomes so bloody unstable when loading a plugin. So before I get all mad here, the point should be...
If you can model, animate, light something with blender, you'll do the same in every flippen blimmen other app too. just different keystrokes. Learn the concept and then the program. As things look now, blender will come to the "standard". o, to kill 2 flies with 1 slap, bring back the game engin. Give Discreet GMAX a hard time. That's why they made Gmax, 'cuz blender entered that market and they saw a gap.

Uhm, okay, I'm done.... :lol:

ScOrPiO
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:00 am
Location: South Africa

Industry standard or not

Post by ScOrPiO »

I'm a reseller/support for pinnacle and canopus digital video editing products. Job description : Digital Video Specialist and Systems Builder. DAMN!
Anyways, to get to the point.
I've played with Avid, Premiere, Edius, Studio, Edition, Commotion, Combustion, AE, LW, Max, Maya, Virtual Light, Strata, Virtual Dub, CAD, Houdini, Digital Illutions and many many more...
Ever noticed that more "industry" standard a app becomes the more stable it becomes? Hollywood is switching back to Unix based os Linux! yea! Why? well, they can customize their appz without licensing and that nonsense. A product is used only if you really need it. I'm starting to refuse to sell Adobe Premiere Pro to clients because they don't use it to its full potential. Also it's a new engine for PPro and I don't trust 1st gen products 'cuz I do the support. I've been playing with blender since 1.8 I think. And NOW since I played with 2.28c and the new 2.3x it kicks ASS!
but, can someone just make a darn disc with plugins and sell it! Just make sure its tested else you'll get flamed. :shock: Did you notice how many plugins Max, Maya, LW and almost everthing else have to make it opperate? It's insane! And Max becomes so bloody unstable when loading a plugin. So before I get all mad here, the point should be...
If you can model, animate, light something with blender, you'll do the same in every flippen blimmen other app too. just different keystrokes. Learn the concept and then the program. As things look now, blender will come to the "standard". o, to kill 2 flies with 1 slap, bring back the game engin. Give Discreet GMAX a hard time. That's why they made Gmax, 'cuz blender entered that market and they saw a gap.

Uhm, okay, I'm done.... :lol:

ScOrPiO
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:00 am
Location: South Africa

Industry standard or not

Post by ScOrPiO »

I'm a reseller/support for pinnacle and canopus digital video editing products. Job description : Digital Video Specialist and Systems Builder. DAMN!
Anyways, to get to the point.
I've played with Avid, Premiere, Edius, Studio, Edition, Commotion, Combustion, AE, LW, Max, Maya, Virtual Light, Strata, Virtual Dub, CAD, Houdini, Digital Illutions and many many more...
Ever noticed that more "industry" standard a app becomes the more stable it becomes? Hollywood is switching back to Unix based os Linux! yea! Why? well, they can customize their appz without licensing and that nonsense. A product is used only if you really need it. I'm starting to refuse to sell Adobe Premiere Pro to clients because they don't use it to its full potential. Also it's a new engine for PPro and I don't trust 1st gen products 'cuz I do the support. I've been playing with blender since 1.8 I think. And NOW since I played with 2.28c and the new 2.3x it kicks ASS!
but, can someone just make a darn disc with plugins and sell it! Just make sure its tested else you'll get flamed. :shock: Did you notice how many plugins Max, Maya, LW and almost everthing else have to make it opperate? It's insane! And Max becomes so bloody unstable when loading a plugin. So before I get all mad here, the point should be...
If you can model, animate, light something with blender, you'll do the same in every flippen blimmen other app too. just different keystrokes. Learn the concept and then the program. As things look now, blender will come to the "standard". o, to kill 2 flies with 1 slap, bring back the game engin. Give Discreet GMAX a hard time. That's why they made Gmax, 'cuz blender entered that market and they saw a gap.

Uhm, okay, I'm done.... :lol:

teachtech
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:58 am

Post by teachtech »

I like the way you think ScOrPiO ! :D I'm a drafting teacher at the high school level and we've been working extensively with 3D models and animations for about 5 years. We used to subscribe to an ACES program where for about $3500 dollars per year we get 25 seats of everything that AutoDesk makes (AutoCAD, Mech. Desktop, Arch Desktop, and 3D Studio). It was cheap enough for the schools to jump in, but expensive enough to keep you from getting any other applications. It made me feel like an AutoDesk saleman without the commissions! AutoDesk was smart with the marketing ploy.. for a while. We ditched the lease 2 1/2 years ago and bought some packages outright. We figured the cost paid for itself in about 2 1/2 years and we could upgrade after that. We began using Blender to replace our animation work at that time and it's been getting better ever since. A month ago I had the opportunity to do a presentation at our annual state technology teachers conference on Blender which I lovingly called "Multimedia Portfolios in the Drafting Lab- using Low-cost/High-quality Animation to Enhance Student Interest". I anticipated 25-30 teachers to attend my seminar. The actual count turned out to be about 45. I'm trying to do my part to get the word out about Blender. Several people even expressed an interest in running an inservice on Blender.

And P.S.- My students and I can't wait until the game engine comes back! :!:

Zarf
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:54 am

Re: Why my school decieded not to use blender

Post by Zarf »

ideasman wrote:At my school we use Lightwave and have been having a lot of problems that are costing the institution to resolve.

At a staff meeting the possibility of using blender was seriously discussed.

It has a lot going for it in an educational environment-
- Students can use it at home
- Fast render times (Lightwave can render slow if student don't know much about raytracer settings)
- Good user base, tutorials
- Enough features for general 3D work
- Python/Game engine etc... Are nice too.
- Portable files with packed images (home to school)

The main reasion that blender was not chosen was that it is not currently seen as an industry standard.

One thing my school does is to train students to work in the industry.


The kind of responce you would get is "Why are we using blender? Isnt it some shareware app, no one uses it in the industry, how am I supposed to get a job?"
(Note: I am not bashing blender here, only being a realist and pragmatist. I also dont work in the industry, this is only my opinion, but I feel this is important to say.)

I find this very disturbing. We have two intersting statements

"My school trains people to work in the industry"

and,

"blender is not seen as an industry standard"

So *what* is the conflict here? it is pretty apparent then that it would be incredibly irresponsible (immoral) of your school to shove blender down students throats.
ideasman wrote:This into is not available so when I was asked this question by another teacher I just sead that I did not know of any commercial jobs made using blender.
Wouldn't you (or the people you work with) be the people who should know in the first place since you train people for the industry?
Blenders penetration into the CG industry is there, but it is rather dilluted.

Blender has a place in education, I believe this strongly, *especially* now that the source code is GPL. Its not a good idea to use it in a situation where highly talented students are only going to be screwed over by being trained in an app that they will most likely have to forget about working in ever in their professional life. Not only will this be terribly frustrating for them, but they will also have to spend even more time outside of school to train themselves in the applications they will actually use on the job.


Cheers,
Zarf.

Zarf
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:54 am

Re: Cant' be much of an education

Post by Zarf »

millirad wrote:It always surprises me that programs become more important in industry than results.
The money that film companies save using a tool like blender far outwieghs the
'industry standard' argument. Obviously most film companies have thier heads firmly planted
up thier own butts anyway. That's why tiny little companies canmake perfectly good movies and
get wide distribution despite them.

I'm looking forward to some really good OpenMovie(s) where things are developed completely online outside the grasping claws of motion picture companies. By the time they wake up they'll be extinct.

Pete

I can almost gaurentee you that the people holding the purse strings at the major movie studios could give a care about whether the vfx studio they hired for a particular shot used lightwave/maya/xsi/houdini/whatever as long as its done on time and within budget (and it looks good).

The program is not more important than the results which is why most places choose the best program for their particular needs. It is a simple fact that in some programs certain results are a lot easier to achieve (easier = faster = cheaper).

As far as the price issue, most people in the industry seem to agree (at least publicly) that most apps out there pay for themselves within the first job(s) completed.

This sort of attitude that 'people dont use blender because they are stupid' is really really harmfull to blenders image in the long run, It makes me sad.I wish more people saw this...

Cheers,
Zarf.

modron
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:13 am

Post by modron »

The basic tendancy of people is to go with what they know. The actual functionality of an app is often irrelevant, and the movie industry can hardly be considered clever, or efficient for the most part. People are thick, and unwilling to change. This is why we are still burning fossil fuels in our automobiles. Open source is the future, and the sooner people accept this, the better.

Zarf
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:54 am

Your blowing smoke...

Post by Zarf »

modron wrote:The basic tendancy of people is to go with what they know. The actual functionality of an app is often irrelevant, and the movie industry can hardly be considered clever, or efficient for the most part. People are thick, and unwilling to change. This is why we are still burning fossil fuels in our automobiles. Open source is the future, and the sooner people accept this, the better.
I hope this is a joke. Have you seen for instance, the work that Dave Cardwell has posted in online forums that he has been doing with Zbrush and maya for the new LOTR feature? This is majorally cool and *new* stuff using an app that is relativly untested in a production enviorment but WETA is starting to use it HEAVILY and in a majorlly cool way. They also inegrated Mirai into their pipe for the exclusive facial sculpts of gollum and other creatures. Now Mirai is hardly a standard app and kind of *dead* (well in hibernation actually.) but it was the best tool for the job, period. Dosn't sound like they are too set in their ways, but rather focused on results. I would proposition that they are not alone in this attitude in the VFX world.

As far as open source being the future, well guess what, no open source project exists in either situation that would have enabled WETA to work this way. Once again I would wager (actually I know) this is not an isolated incident. So please do tell, *why* people are ignorant and need to 'wake up and smell the OS coffee'. I don't think that you can really with any authority state that the industry really dosnt know what its doing without having deep insider knowledge of it, otherwise the implications you made are just rude and offensive. I will wager (once again) that you don't have any such knowledge.

Cheers,
Zarf

modron
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:13 am

Post by modron »

actually i was half serious and half yanking your chain. zarf, you have a tendancy read into what people say beyond the actual content, and carelessly toss about generalized condemnations in a quite pretentious manner. This is something I find offensive, and this is why i yank your chain. :P *yoink!*
<edit> and frankly the way you talk about Blender in Blender Chat, I wonder what is keeping you here? Are you perhaps working for Maya? :wink:

matt_e
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 4:32 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by matt_e »

modron wrote:<edit> and frankly the way you talk about Blender in Blender Chat, I wonder what is keeping you here? Are you perhaps working for Maya? :wink:
I know that's tongue in cheek, but he's being realistic. I know a lot of OSS proponents like to keep telling us that open source will take over the world, merely because it's open source, but that's just not the case. To be successful, Blender must be better in some way. Sure, being open source can enable it to get better quickly under the right conditions, but open source is a means to that end, not the end itself.

modron
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:13 am

Post by modron »

I know, broken. I am enthusiastic, perhaps even passionate about Blender, but I am not a fanatic. :wink:

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