THE N-GONS PROJECT

Compiling, libraries, modules, coding guidelines and porting

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joeri
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Post by joeri » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:20 am

Steve's suggestion might be confusing...
Or calls for an extra mode or more key presses?
Sometimes its handy to have the faces removed connected to the removed edge. Seems like it's an n-gon model mode?
In FakeGons it seems nothing more then a 'hide edge' option?

Youssef|3d
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Post by Youssef|3d » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:09 pm

In FakeGons it seems nothing more then a 'hide edge' option?
no its the first step

fgons has the same functions like real ngons, I mean :
- split tool ( a kind of knife; like a multiple face loop cut but it can be modified per edge
-chamfer
-vertex/edge extrude
-seperate edge bevel
- ......

its only a question of time,so let us wait :wink:

Youssef|3d
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Post by Youssef|3d » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:05 pm

joeri, here are some tutorials that show you what ngons modelling is
as you can see they start with a box and they get a shap of the charakter very fastly. later they cut the topology in the box and they get n sided polys, but never mind, later they add more cuts to change the n-sided poly to quads; but why : because they want to get a smooth and clean result :)

http://news.cgland.com/ntimg/noorungy/tiger.avi
http://news.cgland.com/ntimg/noorungy/demon.avi
http://67.15.36.49/team/tutorials/criven/criven01.asp

joeri
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Post by joeri » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:18 pm

The result is the mesh? Not a renderd animation?
I aways want a clean animation. Never a clean mesh.
As a matter of fact, I hardly ever use quads unless they are planar.
I think you know why.
Blender has very nice wire removal in object mode (I think). So, why have n-gons? As a draw mode, I think that's cool. As a "don't touch the edges because we pretend they are not there", not so cool.

bmud
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Post by bmud » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:49 pm

joeri has a point. n-gons, quads included, are very misleading when it comes to the lines that are made automatically. What do you all think of the fake n-gons that are coming with 2.35?

Youssef|3d
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Post by Youssef|3d » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:50 am

What do you all think of the fake n-gons that are coming with 2.35?
well, many tools support ngons to give you the liberty of cutting like you want . if you cut something in blender, something like a topologie of a head or muscles you will get a dirty result and many triangles.
but if you cut something with ngons support you will get a much better result because you can add later more cuts and you can control the cuts.

that is "modelling liberty" no cut limt :wink:

"modelling liberty" I need more informations

example: http://www.thehobbitguy.com/tutorials/p ... page02.htm
as you can see, the guy have a basic shape and he cuts the topology of the character in the mesh and that is the only reason why you find ngons support in 3d tools. to give the artis "modelling liberty"

but blenders f-gons, I mean hiding edges to get a ngons look, well.. :roll:
Last edited by Youssef|3d on Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:35 am

Nice example.
Notice how there are no n-gons in the model.
Only quads and triangles.

cessen
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Post by cessen » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:52 pm

I would like to see ngons implimented in Blender simply because they are useful as a modeling tool. In generaly there should not be many ngons in a final model, but it is very useful to have the ability to create ngons during the modeling process, and simply remove them at the end or along the way as things take shape. And in some cases they can also be perfectly okay in the final model itself, especially for catmul-clark subdivision surfaces, since they are turned into quads at the dubdivided levels in a very specific way that is consistant (i.e. no guessing where the edges are).

Youssef|3d
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Post by Youssef|3d » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:44 pm

good , you know what I mean :D

I talked with some coders about the professional and extended poly tools like the draw split tool and some other typical ngons poly tools.
there are many cases that you must code. ( a lot of work)
for example: which edges become visible and when and .......

btw, you talked about a "draw split tool" but what is it ?

it is the most important tool in ngons modelling. here are some pics :wink:

you can use it like a multiple face loop cut but it can be modified per edge
Image

or you can draw everything what you want on your mesh, like a char topo
Image
Image

joeri
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Post by joeri » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:41 pm

Seems to me you want a good cut tool.
Who cares if it cut's in n-gons or not. Why would it only cut inside an n-gon?
And if it doesn't , why would you need n-gons?

Zarf
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Post by Zarf » Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:38 am

joeri wrote:Seems to me you want a good cut tool.
Who cares if it cut's in n-gons or not. Why would it only cut inside an n-gon?
And if it doesn't , why would you need n-gons?
5-sided faces are very very usefull for models that are going to have Catmull Clark Subdivision applied. Although this can create subtle shading anomolies on the 'limit surface', once you are used to how CC subdivision works with N-Gons you won't really have any trouble predicting its behavior. Steven Stahlberg even exploits those anomolies to work for him in some of his models. Regardless Catmull Clark subdivision does not have any trouble dealing with faces with arbitrary numbers of edges.

This is really the strongest argument for N-Gons, they are usefull for Organic modelling with subsurfs. I switch between Wings and Blender pretty frequently while working on a model, so I end up 'hurting' for N-Gons in blender quite a bit.

Also, there are other tools that could benefit from N-Gons. I have an (unfinished) script that does essentially the same job as Mayas wrap deformer, although it dosn't just do simple point weighting (as alias implies their software does in the dev docs). Instead it weights the vertices of the wrapped object to 3 types of entities on the deformer (Faces/Edges/Vertices) based upon rules I 'borrowed' from Catmull Clark subdivision. Changing the edge connectivity of the deformer (by tesselating n-gons for example) would fundamentally change the way it affects the wrapped object, which is no good since this is a tool that is meant to make rigging and getting good joint deformation much simpler.

I say, 'Vive le N-gons!'
Zarf

joeri
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Post by joeri » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:59 am

You turned me around Zarf! I say vive le n-gons too!

Youssef|3d
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Post by Youssef|3d » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:32 pm

I switch between Wings and Blender pretty frequently while working on a model, so I end up 'hurting' for N-Gons in blender quite a bit.
you are not alone :)

if we want have ngons support in blender with ngons tools, we must work on it.
we must look for coders and support them as good as possible.

in this thread there are three sites why we want have ngons and ngons tools , why professional 3D tools have it, why professional 3d artists use it and why its usefull.

as I said, its only a question of time but we must support the ngons idea in blender :wink:

joeedh
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Post by joeedh » Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:17 am

Youssef|3d wrote:
I switch between Wings and Blender pretty frequently while working on a model, so I end up 'hurting' for N-Gons in blender quite a bit.
you are not alone :)

if we want have ngons support in blender with ngons tools, we must work on it.
we must look for coders and support them as good as possible.

in this thread there are three sites why we want have ngons and ngons tools , why professional 3D tools have it, why professional 3d artists use it and why its usefull.

as I said, its only a question of time but we must support the ngons idea in blender :wink:
Well, I suspect that if NGons are to appear in Blender, they will have to be approved (and mostly implemented) by Ton, since he wrote the new EditMesh code, and would know how to best to do it

Also, adding NGons would probably break backwards compatibility, considering that the mesh faces would no longer have a fixed size. Unless you converted an NGon to a FGon when yoou saved it. . .hmm.. .then convert it back when you load it . . .

joeedh

Youssef|3d
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Post by Youssef|3d » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:17 am

Youssef|3d wrote:
I think thats a lot of work to integrate a new mesh type
maybe "FAKE GONS" are a better altaernative
I mean if they have the same characteristics why we need "REAL GONS"

I know many tools that dont have "REAL GONS"
3DS MAX or Cinema4D NGONS are just a fake because they just hide the edges
they are not real n-sided polygons but the work is like real NGONS

I believe this "FAKE GONS" concept will solve blenders NGONS problem
there are many cases that you must code. ( a lot of work)
for example: which edges become visible and when and .......

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