About Blender interface...

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

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joeedh
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Post by joeedh »

oktodindon wrote:
And to answer your example of a piano, the beginner will have everything in front of him to play music. Nothing more than easy to use touches... The manual is here to learn advanced functions, not to learn how to use the thing...
I understand your point that pianos are still easy to learn the *basics* of, and that this makes them similar to other 3d software, and I disagree with it. People generally arn't happy only knowing to do the most basic and simple songs, which is all those "beginner" books teach (for obvious practical reasons that your learning by touch :) ). Generally a person either learns to play the piano for one of three reasons: they like music, they compose music, or they need the skill for practical reasons (like playing at church or something). None of these reasons are helped along particularly by only concentrating on the "easy" stuff.

In fact, I'd say a piano is more like blender then any other software, because you can't really do much usefull with it unless you spend the time learning it, usually from a teacher.

Joe

oktodindon
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Post by oktodindon »

Yes but, do we really need to waste 55 min of tutorial video to learn "How to use the interface" ? I don't think so. Plus, the first sentence of the guy in the first video is "Blender interface is intuitive". Mhhh. I'm ok to admit that when Blender is learnt, it's easy to use. But please Blender community have to admit that interface is everything but intuitive.

stiv
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Post by stiv »

...intuitive.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
-- Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

oktodindon
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Post by oktodindon »

Really. So let's see what wikipedia tell us about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_%28knowledge%29) :

Intuition is an immediate form of knowledge in which the knower is directly acquainted with the object of knowledge.
[...]
Intuition differs from opinion since intuition is a way of experiencing objects, while opinion is based on that experience.
[...]
The intuition is the pattern-matching process that quickly suggests feasible courses of action.

jesterKing
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Post by jesterKing »

Intuition in this case is nothing without prior knowledge.

My mother will not be able to use 3dsmax, how intuitive it may be to those who work with it.

I think that intuition in this case is used for learned paradigm (+ perhaps muscle memory).

Yesterday a user asked me how to unhide an armature, intuitively I suggested alt-h as the opposite of the hide function through h (since that is how Blender works). And it happened to be so.

/Nathan

joeri
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Post by joeri »

As far as I understand; Intuition is a darwinism: the people who do intuitivily things "right" stay alive and people who don't, they die. Or can complain that the actions they had to take to stay alive are not intuitive.

There is nothing intuitive about ctrl-v being "paste" yet everybody seem to know that's mostly the case. For ease they seem to forget they have learned it somewhere by reading it (for example as a tooltip) or at computer class.

Adapting the blender interface to these users is alot of (dull) work, and to what purpose? If you want to do the 3d basics then download sketchup.

oktodindon
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Post by oktodindon »

When you come to make 3D graphics, you already are not dumb and your brain has enough capabilities to make "right" decisions intuitively. You won't click on the Quit button to create a cube.

So, starting on this principle that all people making 3D graphics are almost equally intuitive, it's quite easy to determine what's intuitive and what's not.

You will more likely find easy to press Space or click a "windows style" upper-right button to switch from 1 to 4 viewport, rather than define yourself your own viewports by clicking on the top edge of it, choosing "split", moving downwards, click again on the edge, split another time, adjust the size again...
And that's only an example...

oktodindon
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Post by oktodindon »

There is nothing intuitive about ctrl-v being "paste" yet everybody seem to know that's mostly the case. For ease they seem to forget they have learned it somewhere by reading it (for example as a tooltip) or at computer class.
There is nothing intuitive there, but this is a standard. People don't need to learn again in every software they use. This is what I call a "convention".

Blender doesn't respect anything from conventions, it has its own. That's what makes him unintuitive. We don't except a software to be independant but to be included in a software pipeline. But as soon as it's very difficult to adapt to its odd interface, I don't see where the productivity is...

BeBraw
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Post by BeBraw »

Blender doesn't respect anything from conventions, it has its own. That's what makes him unintuitive. We don't except a software to be independant but to be included in a software pipeline. But as soon as it's very difficult to adapt to its odd interface, I don't see where the productivity is...
That's true. Like a car has its interface, so does a motorbike. You can't expect to be able to ride a motorbike if you can drive a car. So Blender is unintuitive in that sense. There's no reason to deny that.

To make Blender intuitive, it would have to be transformed into a car. I doubt it would make sense to reengineer a motorbike to become a car. I think it's just easier to pick some other vehicle if you cannot cope with it.

Not all people are motorbikers.

kAinStein
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Post by kAinStein »

oktodindon wrote: You will more likely find easy to press Space or click a "windows style" upper-right button to switch from 1 to 4 viewport, rather than define yourself your own viewports by clicking on the top edge of it, choosing "split", moving downwards, click again on the edge, split another time, adjust the size again...
That way you can have the interface that fits your personal needs. I guess that you don't know that you can store several different screens in your default file, that you can switch between them with CRTL-LEFT and CTRL-RIGHT, that you can maximize and minimize a (non-overlapping) window with CTRL-UP and CTRL-DOWN and a lots more. I for my part don't have a 4 views screen at all. Why should I? Wasting space on my monitor? Btw.: Blender used to have buttons to minimize and maximize - but they have been removed because it would get crowded with buttons. Blender's UI is definitely not perfect but it allows you to display only the information you want to have - without clutter. If that's not the way you work - well, then....
There is nothing intuitive there, but this is a standard. People don't need to learn again in every software they use. This is what I call a "convention".
So you are not after intuitivity but after a very cheap tool that follows your so-called "conventions". If you take a close look over the 3D applications you'll see that those applications have only a very few so-called "conventions" in common (even a quick glimpse over some screenshots would have revealed that).
Blender doesn't respect anything from conventions, it has its own. That's what makes him unintuitive.
Little bit of a contradiction, isn't it? Conventions are learned and not intuitive. Following you previous posts and the definition you took out of Wikipedia all of your posts are no more than some hot air.
We don't except a software to be independant but to be included in a software pipeline. But as soon as it's very difficult to adapt to its odd interface, I don't see where the productivity is...
You don't see it. I don't care. It's not the right tool for you. You could have been much more productive if you would have understood that: You've could have used the time you have been posting here and got a tool that you would like to have, instead of demonstrating your ignorance.

Milky
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Re: About Blender interface...

Post by Milky »

oktodindon wrote: The biggest rule of interface design is : the user don't care about manual.
That's the user's problem. If the user can't be bothered to read the manual or tutorials to learn how to use a program, I can't really see how that particular user would do better using any other software, in the long run. And especially with 3D software, that is true.

Sure, there are lots of things that could be improved - nothing is perfect -, but if you aren't willing to read a manual to one of the most complex software types out there, well, good luck doing anything nicer than a box in it...
oktodindon wrote: To extend my point of view, I unfortunately feel that 95% of open-source free softwares have the worst interfaces ever, the less intuitive ones. Probably because people developing such softwares are into the open-source ideology, running Linux or other free OS. People who know how read a manual. People who even know how to use a console and more than that, who know how to code ! That's great, but a such community forget one important thing : the "I don't want to waste one week on learning how to extrude along a path" users. (Of course I didn't take one week to do that, just one hour after searching on google). With XSI, without reading any manual, without knowing a fucking thing about this software, you extrude a beautiful shape along a path in 2 minutes. One more minute is enough to make branches to the new-made mesh with other curves etc.
Oh come on. That's incredibly naive. The fact that something is free makes it bad? That, my friend, are the words of an ignorant fool. Not that you are one though, because you prefer non-free software, right?

Or, maybe I got you wrong here. Maybe, what you're saying is that blender should be for dumb people? I honestly don't see what else you would mean with your statement.
oktodindon wrote: What I want to say is I'm sure Blender can do what the other can do. But you lose 95% of your potential users only because Blender interface is... well I'm sorry to say that... Blender interface is shit.
Blender's interface is hard to learn, yes. Once you've grasped the idea and learned the necessary hotkeys, you will use it easily - and fast! 3D Studio Max's interface is easy to learn, that's true. But the speed at which you do things almost decrease by time in it. It's as unefficient as a program can be. Shortcuts ARE faster, and if you're willing to learn them (which you will if you are doing anything remotely serious), you won't have a problem with it. At least not for me, or anyone I've introduced Blender to...

There are, however, lots of things to improve - as I said.
Last edited by Milky on Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

oktodindon
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Post by oktodindon »

I said that the user will read the manual only to learn advanced functions, for a software he feels comfortable to use without reading a manual.

Simple example : will you prefer using Telnet or mIRC ? VI or Notepad++ ? Bittornado or µTorrent ?
They are doing the same things... but the easier ones are also the ones you want to work with.

Of course you need to read a manual for using a 3D software, but not for doing basic things such as moving, scaline and rotating stuff or changing your viewports !!! I understand very well that if you use it you use it easier. But that's not what I'm talking about !

And for free software, I *really* think that almost all programs are made by geeks for geeks. UI designer is a job, free softwares just don't care about it. These UI designers prefer to be paid, maybe...

Milky
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Post by Milky »

oktodindon wrote: Simple example : will you prefer using Telnet or mIRC ? VI or Notepad++ ? Bittornado or µTorrent ?
That's easy. Irssi, VIM and Azureus. ;)
oktodindon wrote: They are doing the same things... but the easier ones are also the ones you want to work with.
That's just ignorant. I want to use the ones that have the functionality I need, not the ones I learn the fastest...

Simple example: will you prefer using MS Paint or Photoshop? Windows or GNU/Linux? Quit school or stay in school?

kAinStein
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Post by kAinStein »

oktodindon wrote:I said that the user will read the manual only to learn advanced functions, for a software he feels comfortable to use without reading a manual.
Yeah, that's why the producers of commercial software only write manuals for advanced functions and leave the basic stuff undocumented. In addition I've never seen quickstart and beginner tutorials for 3D Max, Lightwave and Maya - and never have I seen people asking even the most basic things on forums (for any program I know about).

Of course programs allow the user to explore the features of a program so does Blender. But exploring some thing doesn't make instruction obsolete. Regardingless which program you use.
Simple example : will you prefer using Telnet or mIRC ? VI or Notepad++ ? Bittornado or µTorrent ?
They are doing the same things... but the easier ones are also the ones you want to work with.
Telnet/ mIRC: I've never tried to debug a network connection to some mail or webserver with mirc. That's comparing apples to oranges.
To the rest: I use whatever is suited and I like the most. If I've got to edit some configuration file over a ssh connection I can't use Notepad++, so I've got to use vi, nano, joe or even ed if nothing else is there. I for my part prefer using nano or joe most of the times. Are you now telling the nano developers to put a full blown UI on nano? Ridiculous.
Of course you need to read a manual for using a 3D software, but not for doing basic things such as moving, scaline and rotating stuff or changing your viewports !!! I understand very well that if you use it you use it easier. But that's not what I'm talking about !
Having in mind that Blender is used via keyboard and mouse there's nothing more intuitive than R for rotating, S for scaling and G for grabbing - or using the manipulator (The UI for this is not that different than in other applications). If you don't know the keystrokes then a) read the manual or some tuts (which is a good choice) or b) search the functionality by exploring the UI. What is so much different in Blender that you've got a problem with it? If you don't like it - say "I don't like it" instead of hiding behind general-speaking using metaphors like "the user".
And for free software, I *really* think that almost all programs are made by geeks for geeks. UI designer is a job, free softwares just don't care about it. These UI designers prefer to be paid, maybe...
Yeah, again you are insulting people. Hell! If you have got a f*cking problem with free software then just do not use it! Period. Or do you really think that anybody cares about it? There are millions of people using free software. Free software is even getting more and more popular than commercial software. If the software would be as bad as you are writing in here no one would care about free software. Same with Blender: I don't know the exact number of users, so I've got to guess, but there might be around 100,000 regular Blender users and most of them like the interface (they might want here and there some changes - but in overall). Now you're coming in here,demanding to change the UI because you don't like it but need a gratis tool for your job and in the end insulting developers as geeks that can only code shit?! Who the hell are you?!

Marianne
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Post by Marianne »

Meh just stop answering him...

in 4 pages he hasn't made a single new point. Just keeps repeating the same things like a moron.

oktodindon you've spent pages moaning on how you hate blender. Then what are you doing here at all? If you like Maya and 3DMax so much then go buy'em and use them and stop complaining here! I believe blender's interface DOES need changes, but you failed to prove anything.
Of course you need to read a manual for using a 3D software, but not for doing basic things such as moving, scaline and rotating stuff or changing your viewports !!! I understand very well that if you use it you use it easier. But that's not what I'm talking about !
Have you tried blender at all? I figured all this without reading the manual

You don't seem to be making proposals, it just seems like you're trolling

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