Blender interface change

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

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VanHeber
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Blender interface change

Post by VanHeber » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:36 pm

For new users the Blender interface is a alien panel. I have see Cinema 4d from Maxon. The logic of program is like Blender, I have start use it without great problems. So, I believe that is possible to create a new interface for Blender like Cinema 4D. Ok, it´s a difficult job, but not impossible. The organization of icons in Cinema 4d is very intuitive and clear, my impression is looking a new Blender version of the future.

kAinStein
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Post by kAinStein » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:34 pm

Simple solution: Stay with Cinema4D.

Jeremy Ray
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Post by Jeremy Ray » Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:10 am

Changing the interface too much would be rough on those who currently know how to use it.

Gwentiv
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Post by Gwentiv » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:11 am

Besides, the interface is excellent as it is ! I m a newbie at Blender but i can achieve so much more after a month than after a month on 3ds max DEMO...
People have to learn to adapt and discover this great soft, love it for what it is and not just cause it is free...

BeBraw
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Post by BeBraw » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:04 am

Just because you know how to drive a car doesn't automagically mean that you can ride a motorcycle. :)

Take it as a challenge. Go through a couple of tutorials (there are video tutorials even) and decide whether or not Blender is worth learning. Of course one could debate that one can never learn all the features of Blender due to its sheer size but oh well ...

Relayer
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Post by Relayer » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:50 am

kAinStein wrote:Simple solution: Stay with Cinema4D.
You know, it's not like this is the only thread that complains about blender's interface. I'm not saying that every little complaint needs to be addressed, but you can't just systematically dismiss them like there's no validity in any of them.
This might be freeware and open source, but you still need people to be satisfied with the application too. This, If you don't like it don't tell us about it, just go away attitude doesn't serve anyone. Besides, it's rude. The poster said nothing out of line to deserve that.

kAinStein
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Post by kAinStein » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:42 pm

Relayer wrote:You know, it's not like this is the only thread that complains about blender's interface. I'm not saying that every little complaint needs to be addressed, but you can't just systematically dismiss them like there's no validity in any of them.
There are also enough postings that show that there are enough people who want that kind of UI philosophy. Sure, there are some parts that could be surely better and making a certain proposal to improve the UI - ok - but asking for a UI that works like the Cinema4D UI? Sorry. Why not Maya? Why not Max? Or XSI? Or [whatever]? Why not all at the same time?!
This might be freeware and open source, but you still need people to be satisfied with the application too. This, If you don't like it don't tell us about it, just go away attitude doesn't serve anyone. Besides, it's rude. The poster said nothing out of line to deserve that.
Any kind of software has to satisfy its audience but also it can't please everyone. That's just a fact that some people don't realize! If the original poster found a tool that he can work better with than with Blender then the only logical consequence would be to stay with it! No more, no less! If that is rude: So be it! I surely can live with that. (If you like a Stihl chainsaw and can work with it better than with a Husqvarna, you will surely stay with it. What would you say if it should happen that the Husqvarna customers demand that all Stihl chainsaws should be like the Husqvarna models?) Actually demanding to change the whole interface so others are forced to work in a manner that is already possible but unwanted is rude! Why don't all just get Cinema4D if everybody should have it? Do all people like the same car? Why is there that much diversity? You don't expect to go the a Mercedes dealer to have his cars all like BMW or GM, do you?

LetterRip
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Post by LetterRip » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:45 pm

You know, it's not like this is the only thread that complains about blender's interface. I'm not saying that every little complaint needs to be addressed, but you can't just systematically dismiss them like there's no validity in any of them.
The complaints are typically of 2 sorts

1) I'm used to a different 3D package and Blender works differently; why doesn't Blender work exactly like my previous package - you should make Blender just like the package I'm used to.

or

2) I've never used a 3D package before and I can't do anything. Why isn't Blender easy? Please make Blender easy.

Both complaints are unreasonable in that there are no intuitive or easy 3D packages that are 'full featured' - all of them have a steep initial learning curve and a huge time investment. While some of the packages have added the option to have similar mouse and keybindings to other packages that is a fairly recent trend. Most artists who are familiar with other packages who actually take a bit of time to learn Blender end up with a positive opinion of its workflow (there are certainly areas that are annoying and badly thought out - but most complaints are from people who spend five minutes with Blender and don't even bother to look at the quickstart guide.

That said, there is work planned to allow custom mouse, menu, panel, and keybindings that could go a significant way towards reducing the difficulty in migrating to Blender from other 3D packages.

Also after customization becomes much easier - I hope to have a look at doing single purpose simplified interfaces.

LetterRip

Gustav Göransson
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Post by Gustav Göransson » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:31 am

You probably right LetterRip. But I think there also is a third category.

3) I've used one ore several different 3D packages, I like blender but see a lot of thing that could be improved.

These people are meet with same attitude has the ones you mention above. "Change application", "the UI is perfect", "changes are bad". I could probably name a 100 things that I think want to change in Blender UI, or in any other application that have used over the years for that matter. Nothing is perfect and I happy to hear that people are working on making blender more customizable, that more than welcome

And btw VanHeber is not lying Cinema 4D actually have a really good UI =)

pinhead_66
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Location: Belgium

Post by pinhead_66 » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:24 pm

Maybe true Gustav,

every GUI thread starts in the same way, and in stead of having a bunch of well worked out proposals, you get a lot of people all wanting something different and ending up calling each other names for having different ideas

blender is open source. Open source in my view (this is personal opinion) means if you want to change it, change it, or participate in a constructive way, otherwise accept it the way it is.

decent proposals will be considered, if they are well agumented and sound.

saying other programs have it like that, isn't a good argument. saying you're more used to it like that is either.

I for once would like to see a gui thread filled with well documented proposals, instead of gibberish, because, face it, blender isn't perfect

greets

Gustav Göransson
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Post by Gustav Göransson » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:27 pm

Totally agree with you Pinehead.

VanHeber
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Post by VanHeber » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:04 pm

Take easy Kaystein! I like Blender, some operations are quick and robust. It´s my primary 3d software. I don´t understand why not make Blender more quick and easy to use? Your position is very radical "bomberman"! I believe that we need to be open for new ideas and suggestions, why don´t use a UI solution from another software? Or use a similar tool? BMW and GM are differents, of course, but both have 4 wheels, and other similar things. Imagine to drive a car using directional buttons and a wheel to change gears. The learn curve will be high, for a big number of people this will be bad! Please, OPEN YOUR MIND! The Interface of Blender don´t need to like 100% than Cinema4D! But somethings good ideas and organizations can be copied. Of course, good ideas from 3dsMAX and Maya too!

kAinStein
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Post by kAinStein » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:13 am

Then please make a proper proposal of what you would like to have, in what way and of course why you would like to have it, how it compares to the way it is done in Blender or even how it could be done following the Blender UI-philosophy! Open minded doesn't mean that someone has to accept dumb, over-generalized "I-wanna-have-a-[XYZ]-UI-for-Blender-because-it-so-damn-cool" statements!

If you think that some concepts would improve workflow or would be easier to learn without speeding down the workflow then please point out how! Everyone in here is surely interested in that. But: Any further word without an explanation is a wasted word because it leads to nowhere!

In addition: I am quite calm and I was in the first posting - all I said was that if you really like the way Cinema4D works then you should stay with it because it might be the better tool for you! Why the heck don't people understand a simple sentence like that as it is meant? As pure pragmatism...

joeri
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Post by joeri » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:32 am

Wow, a whole discussion on the interface without one comment from my side.

In my opinion a lot of smart things are said in this thread. I like LetterRip's comment and don't agree with Gustav's one.

I think lots of comments and critic about blenders interface are stated in a fashion as if there was no thought about it and that it's so bad because it is open source and developers have no idea what users want.

And although this is true (developers have no idea what users want) this is not the case with blender. Blender has a very much thought out interface that is based on "human interface" created on IrisGL (later OpenGL) with a SGi 101 keyboard and 3 button mouse. Yes that can use an upgrade, but that's no news.

Yes I like to smack "give me a free Maya" peoples demands back in their face, and yes it's very difficult for me as a very happy blender user (because blender is so lightning fast, I mean, ever seen 4 other people create a elephants dream in 4 months?) so take demands by total unknown people serious.

It's not that features requests are often stated in a way like people meet an obstacle in their production...
"Hi, I'm trying to meet a deadline on this production http:someurl.com and I need a macro to remove all ugly edges, why is there no macro in blender?" is just very different to "I've been using Blub for years but Blender is a free download so why can't Blender be like Blub because that is clearly superior to any other package (3d or 2d or word proccessing)"

quote: "I could probably name a 100 things that I think want to change in Blender UI"
Interesting..., or is it? No not really, any reason why somebody should, as a hobby, spend 100 hours on a sentence you've typed down in 5 seconds?
With the result somebody else will just complain about it. What makes your remark so much more worth then another? Some people say the number of remarks count... But is that true? Is Blender a democracy where random remarks need to be implemented just by counts on a forum? Probably not. Numbers work in sales, but at BF headquarters it's about users philosophy.


Good UI ideas change every 2 á 3 years. I think that people who want to help Blender (G)UI have two options:
1. Take the source of blender and start hacking untill you've created a better blender. If that is really better I'm sure people will switch to your application and the foundation then has no option but to adopt your superiour version.
or
2. Take time to learn what blender is about (not what Xsi/Maya/Blub is about) and then see how that can be transformed to a better general userinterface philosophy. Random button locations just don't cut the cake, and shouting (in a developers forum) you want keybinding without knowing what effort that takes in blender code makes you look silly.

I'm sure that if you have proven knowledge about user interface (say you've written your own software, or studied GUI and have some nice documents to back that up) your remarks are adressed far more seriously at this forum.
And it would be far better if people would describe what philosophy they can find behind other applications that they find to be so good. Instead of just summing up surface behavior ( or ever worse; position, shapes and colors ). That would bring these "improvement" remarks to a serious level that can expect serious reactions.

joeri
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Post by joeri » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:56 am

VanHeber wrote:Take easy Kaystein! I like Blender, some operations are quick and robust. It´s my primary 3d software. I don´t understand why not make Blender more quick and easy to use? Your position is very radical "bomberman"! I believe that we need to be open for new ideas and suggestions, why don´t use a UI solution from another software? Or use a similar tool? BMW and GM are differents, of course, but both have 4 wheels, and other similar things. Imagine to drive a car using directional buttons and a wheel to change gears. The learn curve will be high, for a big number of people this will be bad! Please, OPEN YOUR MIND! The Interface of Blender don´t need to like 100% than Cinema4D! But somethings good ideas and organizations can be copied. Of course, good ideas from 3dsMAX and Maya too!
O there is the car comparison again. Not all transport has 4 wheels... Oops, flushed that comparison away. I'll come back on that later.
quote: "Imagine to drive a car using directional buttons and a wheel to change gears. " What? like wipeOut on my PSP? Who needs to OPEN THEIR MINDS here?

quote: "But somethings good ideas and organizations can be copied."
What does this mean? Do you think that blender developers took a good look at Cinema4D and then said: "O look, that's a good idea, we are not going to do that!" Or did they look at the work that needed to be done and said:" If we program this then we can get that work done" ?
Good software is created with a reason/purpose, not to look like others.

Okay, here is a little secret:
Software is not a bunch of buttons.
Buttons are just interfaces to actual code that needs to do the actual work.
Let me see if I can explain. There are cars without gearboxes. Why? The translation from motor to wheels just work different from cars with gearboxes. Demanding a clutch in this car does not make a lot of sense in two ways:
1. Adding a clutch (your visual button) does not do much unless you add a gearbox (the atual code that does stuff).
And where do we get knowledge on how to create a gearbox ?
2. Why add a clutch ( thinking you mean gearbox )? Your claim that that is good because your other car has one (and you probably don't even know what a gearbox is) is not a good reason. This car works fine without a clutch. Most cars in the us do not have a clutch/gearbox. Claiming it would be easier to learn for people who use one of the other cars is true, but so is the remark that it would be hard for people who are already driving this car to change to your system.

So the real question is: How to decide on what is the best system.
And therefore we first need good descriptions of both the systems and the goals you want to reach. If the goal is win races then you probably need clutches and if the goal is everybody needs an easy ride then you probably don't.
Now none of your remarks answer any of the real questions (description of system and/or goals) so,... There you have it...

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