interface

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

Antlab
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

kAinStein wrote: What are modern concepts? I mean: Todays GUIs are still using concepts of the 80's in most parts.
Right. But, as you know, concepts need adequate technology to be fully realized. And today, decades after the old CGA, also the poorest notebook can handle high resolution and millions of colors. So people expect GUIs that use these possibilities. Ok, I can renounce to transparent windows, but only for now :-)
kAinStein wrote:And no one is talking about huge panels with text buttons. (Btw.: Would you like "an enourmous matrix of icons", which you don't know, better? ;) )
At present the Button window in Blender IS an enormous matrix of text buttons. I for sure like better a large matrix of icons or images, see for example the Alpha Palette in Zbrush or the Effect Browser in Photoshop. Not all developers fear about icons and images, it seems :-)
kAinStein wrote:It's not meant for power users: They wouldn't use it much anyway - like many of the so-called improvements. Why would someone for example use the transformation widget if he can do the job better and faster using the keyboard?
Simply because if such a widget is well planned and realised, it can be more easier and faster than keyboard. I remained surprised by seeing the simple but effective snap features of the cheap Sketchup free, but they are designed for a mouse use, I think.
kAinStein wrote: I guess you haven't understood what I was talking about. Text interface? No one is talking about a text interface.
Uhm.. Raskin's examples in his site ARE based on text interface. And I don't consider buttons with only text a "Graphical interface".
kAinStein wrote:Is it? 2.45 is already "late" - so you've got to wait a little bit longer... ;)
There are no problems, I am not in a hurry. At least I hope my future grandchildren could use a Blender with good icons :-)

Ciao

Antonino

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein »

Antlab wrote: Right. But, as you know, concepts need adequate technology to be fully realized. And today, decades after the old CGA, also the poorest notebook can handle high resolution and millions of colors. So people expect GUIs that use these possibilities. Ok, I can renounce to transparent windows, but only for now :-)
Oh! Better have eyecandy than productivity or what?
At present the Button window in Blender IS an enormous matrix of text buttons. I for sure like better a large matrix of icons or images, see for example the Alpha Palette in Zbrush or the Effect Browser in Photoshop. Not all developers fear about icons and images, it seems :-)
The button window is the equivalent to the nice tabs other packages also have. Blender doesn't have any visual material browser and it doesn't give a materials library along with the program - yet. So you can't compare that. What if you want totally new materials in other packages? You are confronted with similar "text buttons" where you can set up what you need... Can't see where there icons could actually be an improvement! I can't set various values by clicking an icon, sorry...

Also: I wasn't talking about the buttons window anyway. I was refering to some kind of toolbar - for various window types - but definitely not in the button window. That wouldn't make any sense!
Simply because if such a widget is well planned and realised, it can be more easier and faster than keyboard.
Never. Even using shortcuts for selecting the tools you'd need at least one click or keypress more than in Blender - do the math! Also dragging can turn quite straining...
I remained surprised by seeing the simple but effective snap features of the cheap Sketchup free, but they are designed for a mouse use, I think.
You know about the manual snapping in Blender or even the automatic snap? And can you compare Sketchup with Blender, Maya, Cinema 4D or 3D Studio Max? Hardly...
Uhm.. Raskin's examples in his site ARE based on text interface. And I don't consider buttons with only text a "Graphical interface".
Nonsens. The only examples which are nearly text only are Archy and Canon Cat. Those were meant for editing text (Though Canon Cat had a minimal GUI and could a bit more than that) and both were from the 80's. I guess you've never read the book, have you? Take a look at ZoomWorld.
There are no problems, I am not in a hurry. At least I hope my future grandchildren could use a Blender with good icons :-)
I would recommend Tux paint... :roll:

Antlab
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

kAinStein wrote: Oh! Better have eyecandy than productivity or what?
Sincerely I thougth that this type of questions would belong to the past. In these days also Linux lovers are used to 3D interfaces and special effects. More seriously, I think that "eyecandy" is only another name for "pleasant". And I personally am more productive in a pleasant environment, do you instead prefer to work in an all grey room without windows? :-)


kAinStein wrote:Also: I wasn't talking about the buttons window anyway. I was refering to some kind of toolbar - for various window types - but definitely not in the button window. That wouldn't make any sense!
Why not? Instead than the famous enourmous matrix of text buttons, a simple toolbar with icons that open option panels. Much cleaner in my opinion, and also much less overwhelming for the normal users.
kAinStein wrote: Never. Even using shortcuts for selecting the tools you'd need at least one click or keypress more than in Blender - do the math! Also dragging can turn quite straining...

You know about the manual snapping in Blender or even the automatic snap? And can you compare Sketchup with Blender, Maya, Cinema 4D or 3D Studio Max? Hardly...
I cited Sketchup JUST because it is a much more simpler program than Blender or the other 3D giants. BUT it has very friendly snap features, while in Blender, guess what, you have to read the manual AND memorize the suitable hotkeys. Is this a kind of productivity increase?
kAinStein wrote: Nonsens. The only examples which are nearly text only are Archy and Canon Cat. Those were meant for editing text (Though Canon Cat had a minimal GUI and could a bit more than that) and both were from the 80's. I guess you've never read the book, have you? Take a look at ZoomWorld.
You are right. Not only I did not read the book, but sincerely the first time I read about Raskin it was just here. Being curious, I started to search a bit about his work. And strangely enough his most cited works are just the Macintosh project (where it seems he DID not propose the GUI) and the couple Archy and Canon Cat. So, IMO, he did not seem a good guru for modern GUis, but I will have a look to ZoomWorld, thanks for the reference.
kAinStein wrote: I would recommend Tux paint... :roll:
I seriuosly suspect they would reject the proposal, being too simple. Consider that my niece and nephew (8 and 5 years old) already started to use my ZBrush. My niece also reproached me because I still don't know how to do realistic hair with ZB :-)

Ciao

Antonino

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein »

Antlab wrote: Sincerely I thougth that this type of questions would belong to the past. In these days also Linux lovers are used to 3D interfaces and special effects.
But I still use the commandline for many tasks - just because it is a lot faster!
More seriously, I think that "eyecandy" is only another name for "pleasant". And I personally am more productive in a pleasant environment, do you instead prefer to work in an all grey room without windows? :-)
Well, icons don't turn something automatically into pleasant. I don't think that 70 icons on my screen come somehow near to pleasant. In addition you are not equally productive if you a) take longer for routine tasks and b) are being distracted from what you are doing while verifying that the icon you are going to click is actually the one you want to click.

Of course a program should be pleasant (which lies in the eye of the beholder) - but as a tool that is meant for working, it should do the job as effectively as possible. Or do you care about having a beautiful carved handle which doesn't feel comfortable if you simply need a hammer?
Why not? Instead than the famous enourmous matrix of text buttons, a simple toolbar with icons that open option panels. Much cleaner in my opinion, and also much less overwhelming for the normal users.
That doesn't make any sense! Those panels are only there if you want them to be there. They give you the possibility to make settings and gives you the information you need for your special task. If you don't want them you can remove them from your screen layout or simply hide them. But usually you need them. So it's only natural that they are visible. Making a user first open something that he needs but is hidden not only needs the user to read the manual (which is opposing your claims) it is also annoying and prevents that the user can accomplish his task. We are talking about a tool that is meant for work and has dozens of functions and hundreds of setting possibilities - not about some kind of game that can be played without knowing every bit of the usage.
I cited Sketchup JUST because it is a much more simpler program than Blender or the other 3D giants.
It is not only simpler than the others, it also does a different job and so works totally different to be that simple. You can't compare Sketchup with any of those programs.
BUT it has very friendly snap features, while in Blender, guess what, you have to read the manual AND memorize the suitable hotkeys. Is this a kind of productivity increase?
Blender is not meant for occasional use - this has been said several times now. Have you actually really used Blender for a longer period of time? Do you know how quick routine jobs can be done and how much faster it is compared to other ways of doing things - besides the fact that you can concentrate on what you want to create? I guess not. This is somehow like someone who once in a while fires up a word processor to write a letter and a professional secretary which uses a word processor all the time and keeps her hands on the keyboard all the time, while the first likes icon buttons just because he actually doesn't know what he is doing - and doesn't need to. Now guess: I wouldn't employ the first for my office... The reasons should be clear...
You are right. Not only I did not read the book, but sincerely the first time I read about Raskin it was just here. Being curious, I started to search a bit about his work. And strangely enough his most cited works are just the Macintosh project (where it seems he DID not propose the GUI) and the couple Archy and Canon Cat. So, IMO, he did not seem a good guru for modern GUis, but I will have a look to ZoomWorld, thanks for the reference.
You are wrong - definitely. (Though I do not like all of Raskin's ideas - but as he said: A better interface depends on the tasks and the priorities)
I seriuosly suspect they would reject the proposal, being too simple. Consider that my niece and nephew (8 and 5 years old) already started to use my ZBrush. My niece also reproached me because I still don't know how to do realistic hair with ZB :-)
You're old - that's all, grandpa! *ducksandtakescover*

Antlab
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

kAinStein wrote:But I still use the commandline for many tasks
I didn't have any doubts about it :-) Seriously, this discussion is turning into the most classical "Command line vs GUI" arguments. So I don't think there is really something new, simply different tastes, but history should teach, so, let's see the other points.
kAinStein wrote:Well, icons don't turn something automatically into pleasant. I don't think that 70 icons on my screen come somehow near to pleasant. In addition you are not equally productive if you a) take longer for routine tasks and b) are being distracted from what you are doing while verifying that the icon you are going to click is actually the one you want to click.
Typical expression by command line guy :-) Probably someone should ask himself why PCs passed from DOS to Windows, and Unix from command line to KDE and Gnome. Maybe to sit down looking at the confusing icons all the time?:-)
kAinStein wrote:That doesn't make any sense! Those panels are only there if you want them to be there. They give you the possibility to make settings and gives you the information you need for your special task. If you don't want them you can remove them from your screen layout or simply hide them. But usually you need them. So it's only natural that they are visible. Making a user first open something that he needs but is hidden not only needs the user to read the manual (which is opposing your claims) it is also annoying and prevents that the user can accomplish his task. We are talking about a tool that is meant for work and has dozens of functions and hundreds of setting possibilities - not about some kind of game that can be played without knowing every bit of the usage.
Probably the same words were used when people saw the first graphical interfaces in professional applications as medical, scientific and so on. Now I have icons also in the software that drives Atomic Force Microscopes, is it enough serious work for you?:-)
kAinStein wrote:It is not only simpler than the others, it also does a different job and so works totally different to be that simple. You can't compare Sketchup with any of those programs.
Do you mean that "extruding" (and having various types of related snaps) means something different in Sketchup and in Blender? I would be very surprised.
kAinStein wrote:Blender is not meant for occasional use - this has been said several times now. Have you actually really used Blender for a longer period of time? Do you know how quick routine jobs can be done and how much faster it is compared to other ways of doing things - besides the fact that you can concentrate on what you want to create? I guess not. This is somehow like someone who once in a while fires up a word processor to write a letter and a professional secretary which uses a word processor all the time and keeps her hands on the keyboard all the time, while the first likes icon buttons just because he actually doesn't know what he is doing - and doesn't need to. Now guess: I wouldn't employ the first for my office... The reasons should be clear...
I don't know if you really have to deal with professional secretaries. I have, and had since many years. And I still remember the shocking passage, for them, from electrical typewriters to word processors. I can assure you that Windows (and obviously its icons) has helped a lot in that passage. It's the same old story, people are more interested in the object of their work than in memorizing dozens of strange hotkeys, just for that reason during the 90s the war "command line vs GUI" ended as we all know.
kAinStein wrote:You are wrong - definitely. (Though I do not like all of Raskin's ideas - but as he said: A better interface depends on the tasks and the priorities)
Sincerely I still have to discover the marvels Raskin did for GUIs, and in particular where exactly they have been applied with success, but I will search again...
kAinStein wrote:You're old - that's all, grandpa! *ducksandtakescover*
Being old (relatively speaking, I'm 41 years old :-) ) gives an advantage: one already knows how some types of opposition end. Would you like to bet that within 2 years Blender will have a much more graphical GUI, with a lot of nice colorful icons?
But don't despair, it will still maintain a secret hotkey, allowing the passage to a completely textual interface, or do you prefer designing directly by manipulating 0 and 1s?:-)

Ciao

Antonino

stiv
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Location: 45N 86W

Post by stiv »

But don't despair, it will still maintain a secret hotkey
Apparently the secret of blender.el, the Blender mode for Emacs, has leaked out. Curses!

But don't mind me. I just stopped in to make sure everyone is playing nice. We are still at the ad hominem attacks and pointless insults stage, so things seem OK. Carry on!

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein »

Antlab wrote:I didn't have any doubts about it :-) Seriously, this discussion is turning into the most classical "Command line vs GUI" arguments. So I don't think there is really something new, simply different tastes, but history should teach, so, let's see the other points.

...

[display of lots of ignorance]

...

Sincerely I still have to discover the marvels Raskin did for GUIs, and in particular where exactly they have been applied with success, but I will search again...
Do you know why I don't talk about nuclear physics? I don't know shit about it...

Antlab
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

kAinStein wrote:
Antlab wrote:I didn't have any doubts about it :-) Seriously, this discussion is turning into the most classical "Command line vs GUI" arguments. So I don't think there is really something new, simply different tastes, but history should teach, so, let's see the other points.

...

[display of lots of ignorance]

...

Sincerely I still have to discover the marvels Raskin did for GUIs, and in particular where exactly they have been applied with success, but I will search again...
Do you know why I don't talk about nuclear physics? I don't know shit about it...
Why do you have to insult people that have opinions different by yours?
You do right avoiding talking about nuclear physics, if you ignore also the basics of it. But I am amused to see how nervous some people become when one simply talks about the hystory of some DECADES of computer interface development :-)
IMO, trying to negate the trend that starting from primitive text based UI led to the present graphich-rich GUI is simply pointless. This obviously doesn't mean that YOU have necessarily to use the more modern methods, but any serious developers know that people require up to date ways to interact with software. So, being sure that Blender's developer are very talented and able to listen to the general demand (did you forget Siggraph?), I remain quite sure that within a few years Blender interface will have a deep evolution, and that this fact could seriuosly increase the worlwide number of users, of all levels.

Ciao

Antonino

Antlab
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

stiv wrote:Apparently the secret of blender.el, the Blender mode for Emacs, has leaked out. Curses!
Yes, I started to suspect about the real meaning of all those text buttons and hotkeys, they probably hide some arcane message, a bit like in the Da Vinci Code :-)
I am worried now, what happens to those who discover the secret (Sabrina is strangely silent since several days, and Azrael has been converted)? Maybe it is better that I stick with Sketchup free :-)

Ciao

Antonino

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein »

Antlab wrote: Why do you have to insult people that have opinions different by yours?
You feel insulted that I don't know shit about nuclear physics? It's a fact! Same with rocket science. Don't know anything about it! Perhaps you should do the same as I do.... Or at least get some knowledge instead of posting nonsense.

You displayed that you actually don't know what you are talking about and instead of exchanging arguments you kept going with your sarcasm to hide the fact that you don't know what you are talking about - and this is quite offensive from my point of view.
But I am amused to see how nervous some people become when one simply talks about the hystory of some DECADES of computer interface development :-)
Really? You showed that you don't know anything about the history of interface development or interface development itself. How can you talk about it?

So prove me wrong instead of writing a whole bunch of ridiculous bullshit! There are a lot of examples I gave you that you have simply ignored. Instead you are talking about text interfaces and similar things. You keep talking about Jef Raskin and don't know anything about the topic.

You keep ignoring the fact that people that work day by day with an application don't do it the same as you would do. Remember the secretaries? I don't know how it is in Italy but usually secretaries have a professional formation and they are trained to use the software they need. And if you watch them working you'll notice that they don't use the mouse that much but instead lots of shortcuts. Do you know why? Pointing and clicking takes statistically more than 5 times the time and in addition it drags your attention away from your work which again takes a lot of time - same with moving the hand away from the keyboard to the mouse and back - that's nothing I made up - it's a scientific fact you could read in quite a bunch of scientific publications. In that context your comment is quite interesting, isn't it?

If you take hardcore gamers you can obeserve something similar. And if you take a look at pro computer artists you even can observe people that use special input devices (alternatively you could use an extended game controller or just the keyboard) with buttons grouped together and that they avoid using the icons of so-called standard software wherever they can while doing routine jobs. And most part of a job is routine! So your comments on how equally effective icons (especially icons alone without a visible descriptive text - there are also quite a lot of empiric studies about human perception and icons you'd better read before posting - then you would actually know how stupid some of your so-called modern methods are - even though they are wide-spread...) are are just hilarious! Good sense of humour or just not knowing what you are talking about?

You talk about ease of use and pleasant appearances but totally ignore the fact that having a screen plastered with meaningless icons is not easy to use and not pleasant because it turns out crowded. Perhaps it would be nicer to explore the application - but by hiding most functionality behind some icon a manual is more and more needed which you actually don't want to read - the existing status quo. But with the disadvantage that you lost most of the workflow and speed of it. Really: That must be an improvement! You even demand icons in a place where they are totally unneeded and turn even obstructive!

I already said that making Blender easier accessible would be good thing - but carefully and without having the same flaws other packages do widely have. But most of your proposals (Have you actually made anyone besides having a toolbar for the buttons window?) are blankly stupid and your sarcasm isn't any better! Or are you just trolling around?

When reading your postings I come up with one question all the time: Have you ever started Blender? Sometimes it doesn't seem so.

Antlab
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

Kainstein,
being quite new to this forum, I don't know if insults, as the ones you use, are normally tolerated by the moderators. In any case, as en educated guy, I obviously will not follow you on that ugly route.
Actually I find the discussion quite amusing, and in some sense out of time. I am happy to know that in your country secretaries are all computer gurus, and that in your offices mice are let new in their boxes.
Maybe it remains misterious why a certain Bill Gates became the wealthiest man in the world, considering that in your opinion people DON'T use GUIs (I can assure that here in Italy we use them, also the secretaries, but hardly we can buy all the tens of millions of copies of Windows and Office :-)).
You are completely free to ignore reality and scientifically calculate the number of clicks , but the world seems going in another direction, where graphical elements in interfaces are the standard, and mouse movements not so a pain. You can also simply narrow down your vision to hardcore users, but the rest of the people, the vast majority, surely want continue to use computer, they like making a lot of things with them (including drawing and create 3D stuff), and their preferences are quite clear (you still forget Siggraph, not exactly a bunch of newbies, I think).
Furthermore, as others already noticed, you don't make a great favour to Blender by insulting on public forums people with different views. Many people, including me, love the program, but they also expect a cordial community, willing to discuss with the not so hard core users the future development.

Ciao, and relax :-)

Socius

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein »

Antlab wrote:Kainstein,
being quite new to this forum, I don't know if insults, as the ones you use, are normally tolerated by the moderators. In any case, as en educated guy, I obviously will not follow you on that ugly route.
Oh! You don't follow the ugly route? Just for remembering: You started it with your own behaviour! Totally ignoring argumentation that doesn't fit your view, making false assumptions, twisting words, not understanding basic concepts and being instead sarcastic, arrogant and mocking about other people that have totally different needs than you is definitely not a sign of a good education!
Actually I find the discussion quite amusing, and in some sense out of time.
Prove me wrong! No?
I am happy to know that in your country secretaries are all computer gurus, and that in your offices mice are let new in their boxes.
Did I write that? I did write that also secretaries extendedly use hotkeys instead of GUI elements in their work as an example (one of three - I can bring up more) - which falsifies your assumptions. And I pointed out that an occasional user usually does not. Learn to read! I even went over gamers and pro computer artists that have close deadlines.
Maybe it remains misterious why a certain Bill Gates became the wealthiest man in the world,
I don't know what Bill Gates does have to do with user interfaces. Actually he got rich with MS-DOS, a BASIC implementation (which both actually weren't even MS creations) and quite a few office programs (MS Word, MS Multiplan, later Excel and some more) which were all character-oriented. But I know: Bill Gates invented the GUI and Steve Ballmer invented the internet.
considering that in your opinion people DON'T use GUIs
My opinion? Where did I write anything like that? Again totally wrong assumptions!
(I can assure that here in Italy we use them, also the secretaries, but hardly we can buy all the tens of millions of copies of Windows and Office :-)).
Keep the sarcasm! Seems that you can't read!
You are completely free to ignore reality and scientifically calculate the number of clicks ,
You haven't understood a word of what I was writing, have you? Does not seem so. Actually you are ignoring facts and twisting my words!

To your example: How many times in a minute do you change context (in the way of performing actions) while using your microscope? How many times do you change context while modelling? No difference, isn't it?
but the world seems going in another direction, where graphical elements in interfaces are the standard,
Did I deny that? Learn to read! In addition: Command lines and shortcuts are also the standard - believe it or not. Not only for a longer period of time but they remained extremly reliable, fast, slim and kept consistency over all those years - graphical elements are changing constantly. Take a look at Win 3.1, go over Win 95 and the versions that followed and now take a look at the new MS ribbons. Something similar on the Mac and with KDE and Gnome. If all that you are claiming would be true - why all those paradigm shifts?! Can you tell me that? Hu... Evolution? Or just because they can't fulfill the marketing promises of intuitivity and efficiency?
and mouse movements not so a pain.
A good GUI minimizes mouse movement and even any kind of interaction to the most needed. A good GUI is ergonomic, should be consitent and adaptive. A good GUI is reliable, efficient and is meant to maximize your productivity (without productivity you don't have a need to use a computer besides playing). If you are a pro (meaning that you are supposed to know what you are doing) then you need a totally different amount of productivity than an occasional user which only want his task finished regardless how long it takes. Again you are ignoring this fact!
You can also simply narrow down your vision to hardcore users, but the rest of the people, the vast majority, surely want continue to use computer, they like making a lot of things with them (including drawing and create 3D stuff), and their preferences are quite clear
The vast majority of computer users are not professionals in all areas! Most aren't even professionals at all. You seem to forget that one... If you had really interest in Blender you would know what I wrote in the prior posting. Actually you don't - for me that is enough explanation...

Graphical elements are good to get a start into something. Graphical elements should be good to organise the information you need. But graphical elements are only one part of a human-machine interface. If a hobbyist can live with it do perform a basic routine action in 7.5 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds then it's ok. He doesn't have any pressure. For him it is a hobby. For a professional it isn't always ok. That's why they work differently. For a professional it would already be enough to have customizable hotkeys so he can adapt the software to his habits. Most probably he wouldn't need toolbars with many icons and he actually would set up his personal workspace for his duties. Got it? Or should I draw a picture that you can understand that?
(you still forget Siggraph, not exactly a bunch of newbies, I think).
What was with Siggraph? That there are studios interested in Blender but that they want to wait after the UI overhaul? Hm. Have you managed even one software migration project? Do you know how much it costs? Do you know how much preparation is nessessary? It's not only installing the new software and on it goes. You've got to analyse the needs, the integration possibilities like exporting data, use of existent tools and data and make instruction curricula: Which means that you analyse who needs to learn what - especially the differences between packages. After that you've got to train the users onto the new software which takes time and is often the most expensive part in a big-scale migration. Now if a software manufacturer (regardless if this is a OSS project or a commercial company) announces a modification of the UI then it would the dumbest thing to do making the migration before the change occured which probably would need another training. Same with porting tools, integration into existing workflows, customization and the like. This all takes a lot of time and money - additionally time is money. Now what?
Furthermore, as others already noticed, you don't make a great favour to Blender by insulting on public forums people with different views.
Again: You started the bullshit behaviour! Exchange of arguments is ok - anything else is not. I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong. Instead you are constantly attacking me personally - and you actually don't know anything about me. Further: As it seems you don't have any knowledge of what you are preaching. If you think that your point of view is in any kind superior - prove me wrong! You actually continued talking about a "text interface" and weren't even able to explain what you mean. I can't see any "text interface" when looking at Blender.
Many people, including me, love the program, but they also expect a cordial community, willing to discuss with the not so hard core users the future development.
Including you? Really? Then you should first get a basic knowledge of the topic before starting to argue. And keep in mind: I don't mind an exchange of arguments - but what you started doesn't have anything in common with such an exchange! Learn to read and understand what people are writing. Then you can make up your mind, prove wrong what someone else has written if it's wrong and make a consistent, well-thought proposal instead of showing your ignorance and disrespect by being sarcastic.

I've taken Sabrina and her problem for serious and I've taken Azrael and his work for serious (and I'm waiting what new ideas he has) - but sorry: I can't take you for serious anymore! You've demonstrated too much ignorance...

Antlab
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

Kainstein,

I continue to repeat that with your behaviour you don't make a good service to the Blender community. I think that each reader can easily notice the difference in style (you continue to use insults, I don't) and probably here moderators are very tolerant (or maybe they by now know your style of "dialectic" :-)).
As I said many times, I perfectly understand the DIFFERENT needs of hardcore, normal, and occasional users of Blender.
But I also suspect that, as in millions of discussions about command line and GUIs, many people, and you seem to fall in the category, just try to ignore some simple facts, that I will summarize:

1) Speaking of Bill Gates, you talk ONLY of DOS and character oriented programs. Interestingly enough, you scream about ignorance, but completely FORGET the last, say, 15 years of history in interface development.
Microsoft DID NOT invent particular revolutions in GUIs, but they understood a SIMPLE thing: few hardcore users in the world love working with ugly text interface, aiming only to brute productivity on SINGLE programs, MILLIONS of other users instead prefer graphical standard interfaces, which easily allow to use MANY different programs. IMO this is the core of MS success. Gates dismissed the snob attitude of many geeks, and decided to offer something appealing to the majority of potential users.
I will not speak about the monopoly problem (that exists) because here we are talking simply about interfaces and user preferences

2) Apart Apple, that make hystory apart (and uses high graphical GUIs since decades) the other interesting field to examine is Linux. Here, until few years ago, the "snob attitude" was prevailing. Then, in the effort to conquer space also in the desktop world (the server niche doesn't have similar problems, for clear reasons), more modern Desktop environments started to appear. Now many users talk about Beryl and his brothers as REAL rivals of Aero, and this indicate that also in Linux world the trend towards more sophisticated GUis is evident (with the anger of the haters of "eye candy" :-))

3) In your positions, you continuously refer to "professional" users and their "routine" jobs, as the realm of hotkey lovers. I understand (and Bill Gates before me) that some users deal with FEW applications and so they can memorize many hotkeys for them, but still, the VAST majority of people has other needs. In scientific field, for example, one has routinely to use office programs (probably including project management), PIMs, Internet, dedicated software for many instruments (as the AFM drivers), graphic programs to analyze and presents the results and so on. You easily understand that, if for each applications one should learn tens of hotkeys, the duty will be very heavy. With standard graphical interface instead is much easier to switch between the different applications and to concentrate on the real objects of the work.

4) Speaking strictly of 3D applications, you can make as for DOS-Windows, and try to forget years of interface development. But many people, including for example the colleagues of Sabrina and, from the reports, several participants to SIGGRAPH, hardly accept an interface that by now clearly shows his age.

In conclusion, differently by you, I always search to explain my ideas in a civil manner, and I modestly think that many people would agree with the previous four points. I also think, as already said, that Blender developers, being very smart guys, have ALREADY understood the question, and in the next versions we will see many changes towards this direction.

Ciao

Antonino

kAinStein
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:08 pm

Post by kAinStein »

Antlab wrote: I continue to repeat that with your behaviour you don't make a good service to the Blender community. I think that each reader can easily notice the difference in style (you continue to use insults, I don't)
Really? Where have I insulted you?
and probably here moderators are very tolerant (or maybe they by now know your style of "dialectic" :-)).
And I am insulting you... Interesting... As I said: Keep your sarcasm! Alternatively I could say it way more rude, but I guess you would start to cry if you are already feeling insulted withouts any insults....
As I said many times, I perfectly understand the DIFFERENT needs of hardcore, normal, and occasional users of Blender.

...

[dismissed]
Honestly: Do you really have the ability to read?! I'm really, really in doubt now...

I repeat: What are you talking about?! WHERE IS A "TEXT INTERFACE" IN BLENDER? Where is something different with the button window than in any other package in the world?!

Image

And the Maya equivalent can be seen on the far right:
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/ncloth_large.jpg

The same goes for other setup panels in Maya and in any other 3D package.

There you want icons? Besides the existing? Are you serious?! You are telling me that I am ignoring facts and I should see the reality? WTF are you talking about? Are you aware of the fact that you've written some postings in sequence with an extreme arrogant and sarcastic undertone which in fact is insulting (because it goes "ad hominem" as stiv wrote) without even knowing what you are talking about? Are you doing this on purpose? Don't you think that this gets really annoying?

I will ignore you from now on... Promised!

Antlab
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Antlab »

kAinStein wrote: I repeat: What are you talking about?! WHERE IS A "TEXT INTERFACE" IN BLENDER? Where is something different with the button window than in any other package in the world?!

Image

And the Maya equivalent can be seen on the far right:
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/ncloth_large.jpg

The same goes for other setup panels in Maya and in any other 3D package.

There you want icons? Besides the existing? Are you serious?! You are telling me that I am ignoring facts and I should see the reality?
Exactly :-)
Maybe you use that sort of attention called "selective", let'see:
-for you the success of Microsoft is ONLY related to DOS and text based appilcations (I use your exact words), for the rest of the world the history did not stop in 1990, and the substantial monopoly of Windows (GUI here, attention) is a well known fact.
- your two images are VERY interesting. In the second, about Maya, you ONLY look at the far right, an impartial observer should ALSO notice, well...
entire rows and one column full of.... ICONS, for every sort of function (those designed by Azrael are nicer though :-)). And what I wrote some posts ago? That using icons to access more detailed panels is more rational respect to the famous enormous matrix of text buttons directly on the screen. So, if you calm down and look with more lucidity at your own examples, you could easily agree with my positions (I think quite similar to those of Sabrina and many others).

Ciao

Antonino

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