2.5 Change the Left Mouse Button

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

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ColleyWrks
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:45 pm

2.5 Change the Left Mouse Button

Post by ColleyWrks »

A basic convention of every mainstream program is that the left mouse button selects and, when prompted, executes actions and the right mouse button brings up options.

Since Blender is struggling for adoption and recognizes that the learning curve is a problem, this very fundamental difference should be addressed in the new version.

Whatever that circle thing is, that currently occupies the left mouse button, it should be relegated to a Ctrl or shift click option. An artist will always have their hand on the mouse, so every button should advance the workflow in some meaningful way. The circle that the current left mouse button puts down doesn't appear to have any function to new users and mostly irrelevant use in modeling or animating. For just those couple of reasons it should not occupy one of the two main buttons on the mouse.

Nikprodanov
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Post by Nikprodanov »

Yes but it wouldn't be fair to the current Blender userbase. Be glad you can configure it to act the way you want to. Plus, presets for Maya, Max, Lightwave etc. will be available to choose from eventually.

ColleyWrks
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:45 pm

Startup Option then

Post by ColleyWrks »

I doubt it would alienate a ton of people, after all left-mouse-button selects and does actions is standard for every major program.

If alienation is a concern, Blender should have the control schemes be an option at program startup, so that new users can easily get into the program.



I work in the games industry as an animator. My experience with this program hasn't been very good. I've spent some of my free time trying to learn it. After a week of on and off tinkering, I dropped it. My conclusion was that the interface was too foreign and cumbersome. I had to relearn too much basic stuff to even start using the program. I wanted to evaluate its rigging tools and animation tools, but early on I could tell that the time it would have taken to get that deep into the program was prohibitively long. The learning curve is reason enough to never consider this program in a studio setting. Wages for an animator are about 3-5K a month. Two or more wasted weeks of work trying to learn blender could easily pay for one of the well established 3d programs.

I'm going to be teaching part time this spring. A free program like Blender could save the department a lot of money to put towards more machines, but students trying to get a job need to be able to hit the ground running in the industry. Learning in this environment would almost guarantee a slow transition into the accepted 3d programs. It kills me that this program could do so much good, but that some weird legacy interface issues are probably going to doom it to continuous obscurity.

Honestly, anything that makes this program awkward to learn or use needs to be changed to more conventional systems.

killpotts
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Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:04 am

Post by killpotts »

You can easily change this in user preferences, so it's not that big of a deal.

In 2.5 it's:
>File
>User preferences
>Input
>Select with
->Pick Left or Right
>Save as default

IMO what they should do is have it default to right mouse for the Windows binary and left for linux users.

psullie
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:09 am
Location: Ireland

Post by psullie »

As an employer I say that being able to adapt to different workflow environments is much more important then proficiency in a single application. Most high end studios use some in-house software or at-least unique approaches to current software anyway.
Also just because Autodesk have a monopoly in 3D applications is no reason for innovative organizations to simply try to clone their software. Nor is it reason not to look at alternative ways of doing things. Starting from zero, Blender is just as easy to master as Maya or Max, just that most students have experience with the later before they encounter blender.
As an animator in the games industry you have a particular need well furnished by the Autodesk stable, for me neither Max or Maya cut the mustard for various reasons while Blender fits well into my workflow as do several other applications.
The 3D industry is one of the fastest growing areas at the moment, with developments in both hardware and software happening each year, knowing which technology is best suited to a particular job will save you a lot more than a software license fee or 2-3 weeks salary.

ColleyWrks
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:45 pm

Post by ColleyWrks »

I don't know what industry you're working in Psullie. The games industry has gone through a horrific culling in the last year, much like most other industries.

Starting employees on new software you lose a month to low productivity and a couple months to get up to full speed. The added cost every time you bring on a new employee can get substantial and it can negatively effect quality, not to mention the need for tech support. The only companies that maintain something like this are the big movie studios, and even they use the established programs just modified. Buying a seat of one of the big programs opens up a huge market of well trained, ready to work potential employees. Going custom is costly.

Blender has a vested interest in minimizing any transitional difficulties that exist. The mouse button thing that controls a mysterious circle, that doesn't appear to do anything anyways, really should be changed. Left mouse button selects is just a fundamental operation across all notable programs.

Left-Mouse-Button = select / execute action
Right-Mouse-Button = contextual menu
q=select
w=translate
e=rotate
r=scale

Every 3d modeling / animating program should have those controls.

SkyWay
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Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:24 pm

Post by SkyWay »

I just have to butt in on this. I'm working in the games-industry as a modeler/animator. Our company has people who are proficient in quite a few programs, Max, Maya, Lightwave, Modo and in the project I'm in uses non other than Blender.

Now then, I have been using Max for seven years, Modo for a couple of months. I learned the basics of Blender in a week. I changed the button configuration to LMB and have been clicking away happily ever since. Using the RMB for gesturecommands in 2.49 is a nice thing to have, sadly the 2.5 alpha I got last week did not have those and the mousebutton configuration was bugging, having no effect on the selecting button.

q=select
w=translate
e=rotate
r=scale

What? Never seen those commands. Might be because I never use hotkeys in Max, it has its rightclick menu :P

Your attitude appears to me as a bit flawed. What I ahve here is a game-studio that is using Blender in a proper commercial project and while it is not without it's quirks and flaws it works and is relatively easy to learn without slowing down the project.

Fix your attitude or bow down to the Autodesk monopoly of programs that are just as quirky as Blender. I'm just happy to have a selection of programs that I can use and I can use them because I have learned them, without schools, without technical support :P

--

skyway-designs

Nikprodanov
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Post by Nikprodanov »

I think this is a stupid topic, anybody who can't gather up enough interest to look into the configuration and change to Left mouse button doesn't deserve to complain about it. If you are seriously looking into using new software, you will take the time to check out how things are done and how extensively it can be configured to suit your habits and needs. I'm a former Max user, and even there i preferred to use a custom key and UI configuration.

illincrux
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:00 pm

Post by illincrux »

Nikprodanov wrote:I think this is a stupid topic, anybody who can't gather up enough interest to look into the configuration and change to Left mouse button doesn't deserve to complain about it. If you are seriously looking into using new software, you will take the time to check out how things are done and how extensively it can be configured to suit your habits and needs. I'm a former Max user, and even there i preferred to use a custom key and UI configuration.
Indeed I agree, for years I've poked at blender, but have never really attempted to completely figure it out until now. Reason being I'm going at it these days, is that I feel like I have a lot more control over setting the ergonomics of my hotkeys to what I'm most comfortable with, and not only that, I can tweak and modify the UI to my hearts content very easily and in realtime. Although, some major over-hauling of the modeling tools still needs to be done in order to streamline modeling workflows...

For example, where in god's name is the backface culling??!?!?!

It's really frustrating that I can't select the edge/face ring/loop that I want to select without really focusing hard on it.

[edit]

Also, the way the transformation tools operates needs to go. Not having precise control at the drag of mouse is unacceptable in the way that whenever you're manipulating multiple components, they tend to pop past where you want them to go...I mean, with the scale and rotate tools.

[2nd edit]

Alright stupid me just figured out that blender has the option to Occlude Background Geometry. Heh, it's only been a couple days for me since I've started going at it, so give me a break! :oops: But I gotta say, if you truly want to figure out and master every feature in a program that you're just learning...going nuts on customizing it in every way possible is probably the fastest way to learn it all. I even come up with spreadsheets and diagrams sometimes to help me better digest the mass of information in a way I'm most comfortable with...since sometimes, it's completely incomprehensible to know what the coders were thinking by their organization methods.

stiv
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Location: 45N 86W

Post by stiv »

Alright stupid me just figured out that blender has the option to Occlude Background Geometry
We used to maintain a list of Frequently Requested Existing Features, but stopped after it got too large.

Before people get too frothed up about what is or is not in 2.50 and how it is implemented, you might want to wait for an actual release version.

Nikprodanov
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Post by Nikprodanov »

illincrux wrote:But I gotta say, if you truly want to figure out and master every feature in a program that you're just learning...going nuts on customizing it in every way possible is probably the fastest way to learn it all.
Coudln't agree more! Even with Blender 2.49 all the messing around (not actually using it for anything serious) taught me alot. Now lets see about your questions... "Occlude background geometry" you already figured out. About the transform tools, im not sure i got it right completely, but... are you sure you don't have "Increment Snap" on? It's used to rotate with exact degrees, or for moving/scaling by 1meter increments etc. It's the little magnet icon on the lower right side, you toggle it with CTRL. Also, you might want to set "Continuous Grab" on, it allows your mouse to keep repeating when you move instead of hitting the edge of the screen.

illincrux
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:00 pm

Post by illincrux »

Nikprodanov wrote:
illincrux wrote: are you sure you don't have "Increment Snap" on?.
Nah, it almost feels like it's reacting to the sensitivity/acceleration of my mouse, but yet in it's own behavior...Like i fyou've ever noticed, the closer you get the center of origin (with multiple components selected), it tends to whip a 'bout?

That's what I'm talking about....

Although, to my first reply, I whole heartedly understand where you're coming from and I've read your disclaimer on these particular forums! lol

Taking that into mind, I plan to do a hell of a lot more research on the modeling tools before I disclose anymore suggestions and/or wants.

But to put it all into perspective in terms of my entire approach to Blender:

I long for the day when I find a program that truly embodies the ZEN of polygonal modeling.

Nikprodanov
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Post by Nikprodanov »

I still can't manage to replicate any "whipping about" when moving/scaling/rotating one or even multiple objects selected... Is there any way for you to illustrate it? Like video, or maybe a sequence of pictures, or animated gif? When i move/rotate/scale anything, it reacts to precisely where my mouse is, it never takes acceleration or any other things into account.

illincrux
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:00 pm

Post by illincrux »

Nikprodanov wrote:I still can't manage to replicate any "whipping about" when moving/scaling/rotating one or even multiple objects selected... Is there any way for you to illustrate it? Like video, or maybe a sequence of pictures, or animated gif? When i move/rotate/scale anything, it reacts to precisely where my mouse is, it never takes acceleration or any other things into account.
Hmmm well, the mouse I'm using right now is the Razer Lachesis on an win 7 64 bit machine...in the past this mouse has given me trouble in reguards to sensitivity issues with certain programs; although i have it configured in such away (after dealing with it for 2 years now) that it doesn't really give me any problems anymore...so this may be an isolated issue?

As soon as i get the chance, i'll try things out on another machine for clarification.

Nikprodanov
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Post by Nikprodanov »

It might aswell have something to do with that, or perhaps it's a bug... From what i see here, if it's some sort of "gaming mouse" that needs special drivers, it might be confusing Blender with a game, because Blender uses OpenGL for the entire interface. Just try with a regular mouse and report back. If it helps, mine is "Genius Netscroll Eye+" for 10 bucks.

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