Hard critique on 2.5 Interface

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

twinidee
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Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: Hard critique on 2.5 Interface

Post by twinidee »

As a person who quit Blender last year because I loathed the GUI, I absolutely adore the new changes. Even though it's not perfect, it's head and shoulders above what it was in terms of usability.

Marites2010
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:52 pm

Post by Marites2010 »

I agree with stiv. Give it time folks... Am quite sure that like any other project, it's a working progress. It may have its fallback but in due time, the interface will be perfect like the previous versions. :D :D :D

bwinston777
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:02 pm

Post by bwinston777 »

I got started with an older version of blender. I'm only a casual user and most of the stuff I learned from various online tutorials & videos. Now, with the new version it's quite complicated for me to find my way round and there aren't yet that many tutorials available. That's quite a shame.

stiv
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:58 am
Location: 45N 86W

Post by stiv »

Now, with the new version it's quite complicated for me to find my way round and there aren't yet that many tutorials available
Not to worry. When Blender first started, back before the open source days, there were not many tutorials beyond a list of hot keys. Things took off quite quickly, even before we got the source code.

Remember 2.5x has not been released yet. It will all happen.

mmes
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:38 pm

Frustration

Post by mmes »

Users get incredibly frustrated when the UI that they are expecting changes drastically. MS did it with Office 2008 and OpenOffice had a banner year.

When people get used to an interface and suddenly find it completely different, that's the most likely time they will switch products, since they'll have to retrain, anyway.

Venxi
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Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:54 pm

Perfect

Post by Venxi »

Kudos to the team for finally bringing the UI to a more contemporary feel. Having used other tool in this genre I can say that the UI needed some attention and restructuring. Stagnation in the evolution of any product is never a good thing. Paradigms change all the time and so much applications to maintain a foothold. I view every Open Source effort no differently than a commercial endeavor. There will always be users with app history and those who are new to it. Many look at all features, functionality and ease of navigation and use. Folks who criticize a more contemporary UI as casual might be missing the bigger picture as it pertains to product momentum and growth.

Again kudos to the team for having the foresight to refactor the UI and overall structure of Blender.

RikSavage
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Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:19 am

Post by RikSavage »

For me making the transition from one package to another is never easy. There are always little quarks that hinder the learning process. Blender 2.54b has bit of a learning curve. It's button configuration is unlike other packages I have used. This doesn't mean it is all bad, it's just different.
Many years ago I began using Lightwave and although Newtek has done little to further develop of the package, I still use it on a regular bases. Mind you I had add several plugins and then reconfigure the entire button scheme to suit my work habits. When it comes down to workflow I prefer the a productive UI scheme and Zbrush wins in this case.

I agree that the Blender 2.5x needs to restructure the interface slightly. What I would like to see is a browser like interface with tabs instead of modes. Click on any button and all it's properties, plugins and deformations are displayed in the side panel.

entelin
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:15 pm

Post by entelin »

every Blender using person i know critized the interface of 2.5 very hard
I love it, couldn't stand the old interface. You couldn't even reassign hotkeys in the old interface, in windows my "middile" button is depressing the scrollwheel instead of my thumb button, made it nearly unusable there for me.

We know this is an alpha
Yup it is
on a usual 19" monitor using blender gets harder and harder cause of the missing space.
.... Change the interface? It's not like it's hard.
the Buttons window is now shiny
Oh noes! surely the end is near!
Blender is something you need and SHOULD spent time in to learn and live Blender.
Not everyone uses blender professionally, in fact I would suspect that most don't. In fact not everyone even uses it for the purpose of making high quality art for you to "download". I use it for making "programmers art", test models, stand in markers and other things I need for my pursuits in game programming. Frankly, I don't want to spend one second more than I have to learning blender.
Please dont let it get so far that just any1 can use Blender with no skill at all and thousands of downloads but no real art...
Like a pencil or brush? Oh wait, silly me despite being simple both of those tools are used widely by advanced artists. Complexity for the sake of complexity is a design flaw or the result of one.

Wildfire
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Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:36 am

Re: Hard critique on 2.5 Interface

Post by Wildfire »

Jimmyon wrote:
Please dont let it get so far that just any1 can use Blender with no skill at all and thousands of downloads but no real art...
I totally agree with Jimmyon. One of the things I don't like about 2.5 is that many things are just too easy. There is no longer as much challenge in a lot of things as there used to be.

take the fire modifier for instance. It makes it too easy, unlike in 2.49...you have to actually do some work to make good fire. It used to be an accomplishment to be able to make fire, but now anyone with no skill can do it.

Most people will learn much more by having to work things out the hard way instead of practically having it done for them. When I finally figured out how do get a decent fire in blender 2.49, I learned not only how to make fire, but a LOT about compositing and stuff.

PLEASE don't change everything. Don't let people become so lazy and unskillful that the program does everything for them. PLEASE don't take the fun and challenges out of Blender.

An irritated and worried blender 2.49 user

Morokiane
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Re: Hard critique on 2.5 Interface

Post by Morokiane »

Wildfire wrote:
Jimmyon wrote:
Please dont let it get so far that just any1 can use Blender with no skill at all and thousands of downloads but no real art...
I totally agree with Jimmyon. One of the things I don't like about 2.5 is that many things are just too easy. There is no longer as much challenge in a lot of things as there used to be.

take the fire modifier for instance. It makes it too easy, unlike in 2.49...you have to actually do some work to make good fire. It used to be an accomplishment to be able to make fire, but now anyone with no skill can do it.

Most people will learn much more by having to work things out the hard way instead of practically having it done for them. When I finally figured out how do get a decent fire in blender 2.49, I learned not only how to make fire, but a LOT about compositing and stuff.

PLEASE don't change everything. Don't let people become so lazy and unskillful that the program does everything for them. PLEASE don't take the fun and challenges out of Blender.

An irritated and worried blender 2.49 user
Posts like this make me laugh. Why should I have to waste time figuring out how to make decent fire and smoke? I can build bigger and better scenes when the tool I use is easier to use. Maya is the industry standard and has a easier time doing fluids, fur, etc...I don't see brilliant works of art being created by scrubs of off the street. I want to see you two get someone that doesn't know how to do this stuff and have them make something decent. The best works from artists in Maya, Max, C4D, Lightwave, etc...have all had years and years of practicing to hone their craft. Blender will be the same way no matter how "easy" it gets

I myself would rather have tools that help me and not hinder me. The tool being easier means I can build more complex scenes, refine my animations, make sure my textures are photo real. If it was up to you two edit mode in blender would still be vertex level with no support of faces, and we'd still be animating by hand. Cameras are easy to use and available to the masses and yet there are crappy photos all over the place. The people who understand the shot, lighting, colors will have the better photos. How can some photographers actually do that for a living?

Progress is good...and besides no one is forcing you to leave 2.49. But if you like it hard just go back to 1.0...its available...it'll have everything you want.
Raise your cup and lets purpose a toast, to the thing that hurts you most.

SiathLinux
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:10 pm
Location: Florida

Wow - seriously.

Post by SiathLinux »

Where to start?

Ok, I've used Blender since 1998 - and I've seen MANY changes, 99.9% have been for the betterment of USAGE.
2.5x is really trying to bring Blender into the mainstream - ie into real world usage by the Industry (ie Movies, Commercials, Television, and Game Creating organizations).

The more 3DS look and the more Maya usability that Blender has the more likely a company will use it instead of 3DS or Maya.

The process of change isn't always as user friendly as they could be, typically 'parts'/'buttons'/'functions' are missing / moved... Amazingly enough, a 3DS max user or a Maya user would find some of them faster than an old Blender user.

My point is - be patient - use the version you most comfortable with until a more finalized version is available. I ran 2.43 until the last 2.45 version was available - then stuck with it till last year before moving to 2.49... it's a personal choice.

For me I can't afford C4D, 3DS Max or Maya - so I will learn the new interface, I will work the layout to do what I want, and I will continue to create art..
SiathLinux

ivegotonethingtosay
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:52 am

Pan / Rotate

Post by ivegotonethingtosay »

Someone broke the Blender UI.
This message is for whoever broke it:

Now I'm not coming here immediately after trying 2.5 for the first time. I've been downloading new builds pretty regularly (in particularly I've been following the Freestyle integration branch) and I've been able to adjust to some of the changes, probably most of the changes in the UI, but there is one that bothers me particularly, and that is the absense of the middle mouse pan / rotate button in the User Preferences panel. Now I have read that the same functionality to switch the default behavior is there, somewhere in the new Keybindings tab, but even reading detailed instructions on it elsewhere I have yet to actually change this default. This is something I use every few SECONDS in 2.49 and before, all the way back to before the source was released. Yes I can still press Shift to pan, but that's beside the point. Where previously I could navigate with the mouse alone, leaving the keyboard button mashing to editing, etc, now I have to hold shift. The problem here is where shift is I often navigate while editing; ie I like to be able to use my eyes while I'm using my hands. Seems reasonable. In fact, what bothered me, and what I was excited to see updated in the new UI was that this was buried as it was in the User Preferences pane, which I then kept open for that sole purpose, splitting the window horizontally to resize it as small as possible. This always seemed like a kludge to me but a small annoyance in an otherwise very capable program, one I always believed they were going to fix in the "next build".
Instead what they've done is hide it four layers deep, removed the button, changed what was once a split second process into an exercise in rewriting the program. Or an exercise in futility. One more step AWAY from usability into forcing the user to become a programmer.
I believe this is symptomatic not just of the implementation of the new user interface, but of the attitude that went into designing it.
It's broken.
Don't tell me what I'm doing wrong. Don't give me a list of 50 things I need to do now to make it work the way I want. Don't tell me how to branch, to recompile, to code a custom python script.
I am the user.
I get to tell the program what to do.
Your job is to make it happen.

Nikprodanov
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Post by Nikprodanov »

The reason Blender had all those buttons like "Select with Left/Right" and "Middle Mouse Pan" was to give some remedy to the program's major weakness - not being able to set the hotkeys for anything. The new system allows that now, which makes those things redundant. That's how key configuration is everywhere else.

Now, it's good to include a "Middle Mouse Pan" for example for transitioning users from 2.4x, but it's not that important. If you are too lazy to research the how the new version works and make it work for you, then how are you going to effectively learn about new things with the rest of the program? As you said, the user has to tell the program what to do. Now there's more things to say to it :)

Also, to have Middle Mouse Pan, in User Preferences, go to Input -> 3dView -> 3DView(Global) and expand "Move View" and "Rotate View" which are at the very top of the list. Swap the "Shift" checkbox for them and it's good to go.

I get your frustration though. Part of the reason why i don't use Linux is because you can't just download the latest version of a program without having to compile it yourself and also compile all the thousands of missing libs before you do that. This is not the case here though, its a simple operation and you dont have to look at sourcecode or anything like that.

chadesh
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Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:39 pm

Post by chadesh »

not like it would happen, but give a easier way to customize the UI would be great. As it is right now theres several things I normally don't use (or care about)with 2.49 as the default UI in 2.5

Like the timeline. I have no use for it in the things I use blender for. I'm sure theres some setting that I could change, but I personally don't want to take several hours trying to find something thats buried somewhere.

Also theres seems to be a feature that either was removed or isn't on by default and I've started to love it.

In 2.49 I could press alt and left mouse button and be able to move the 3d area and pan around the scene. It's gone or hidden. why?

It is rather dumb to change a UI so drastically. It may be fine for users that are used to maya and 3ds and others,but for some of us that don't have access to those softwares and don't do this kind of thing as a job its an annoyance or down right game breaker.

what happened to right click? can't remove anything with right click. should be able to right click and close window in UI.

Also the more basic the UI the better. (for me anyway)don't assume everyone does animation and wants the timeline open.
I should be able to change everything on the UI to make it resemble 2.49 if I so choose to or an option to use that UI if one chooses.

mahesh
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:30 am

new interface is awesome

Post by mahesh »

new interface and maya presets is awesome.
i will not use maya anymore..
i love new blender 2.5. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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