LMB-drag movements: does anyone really use them??

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mmelo
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LMB-drag movements: does anyone really use them??

Post by mmelo »

Hi,

I have been wondering if anyone in our universe uses those LMB-drag moviments to start a Grab, Rotation etc. I think it's a good ideia in a geeky sense, but find I never EVER really used it, and don't really know anyone who does either: I always end up using 'GKey' or 'RKey' or 'SKey'...

If we find that, indeed, no one uses it - could we not find a better use for that combination? I would much rather that LMB-drag do a rubberband rectangle selection (like th 'BKey') - and people learning blender would surely thank us all for that.

Any comments, anyone?

Mats78
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Post by Mats78 »

I don't use them and would be happy about border select instead. BUT.. I know some ppl DO use the gestures (this has been discussed earlier) so I'm quite happy with them being there. No real problem to use 'B' for border select.

So as an answer: yes people use the mouse gestures. =)

-Mats

matt_e
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Post by matt_e »

I was thinking the same thing myself - also because the drag gestures work on both LMB and RMB. I always use the hotkeys myself, never gestures. Since RMB is used for selection anyway, why not change RMB drag to automatically do a border select. That way, the gestures would still work, for those who use them, and it'd be much quicker for selection (I use border select all the time, and it gets laborious pressing B so often).

thorwil
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Post by thorwil »

broken wrote:... - also because the drag gestures work on both LMB and RMB.
Drag to move works with both. But with LMB you can also do gestures for rotation and scaling.

RMB drag allows you to imediately move a previously unselected vertice. That doesn't work with LMB.

A border or lasso selection on RMB drag would make sense, but the drag to move feature is quite nice and already established.

Maybe Shift RMB drag could be used?

However, I think a lasso selection might be better than a border/rectangular one. Sometimes you need to select a lot of vertices in one area that is in no way rectangular. A lasso selection should be like in Photshop or Gimp.

mmelo
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Post by mmelo »

thorwil wrote:Maybe Shift RMB drag could be used?
Yes, I guess it could, but the idea here is not so much to add another key alternative to BKey (which I already use instintively), but rather to approach Blender from other programs for learners' sake.

Let's face it, like it or not, LMB-drag is a de facto standard for box select. Pick any draw/model/whatever program and that's how you select more than one thing. I have given blender to a couple of friends over the years to try out and all of them come back saying "I gave up after a short while - I couldn't even find out how to select stuff!" - do we really need to sell such a great program as blender this short?

So now I know that some people do use gestures. :D But if it's the case of "a dozen people worldwide" then we should consider dropping that in favour of an area select (lasso select would be cool too, but again less of a standard). At very least we should consider making gestures an option (default off).

No disrespect to people who use it - I too have lots of pet uses for my soft. I just think that it's minor things can make all the difference to Blender in newbies' eyes....

Monkeyboi
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Changing the mouse commands

Post by Monkeyboi »

I agree a lasso tool would be useful, however I do really like the idea of RMB becoming borderselect.

Personally I think the gestures are a complete waste of time - I never ever use them. They are very confusing for new people to Blender, since most people are used to LMB being the primary mouse button, and not for some stupid useless little gimmick.

We should bring the primary actions to the LMB which is so much more logical! Having the 'set 3D cursor' command assigned to LMB is really wierd since it is a far less used command than select. And, there could easily be an option for going back to the old way for people who are very used to using RMB for selecting.



To sum up, this is what I think we should do:

1, Make LMB the selection button.
2, Make LMB do a borderselect when you drag
3, Move the 'set 3d cursor' command from LMB to RMB
4, Get rid of the gestures completely, or move them to RMB drag
5, Have an option to enable the old way of doing this for people who are used to the old way.




What do you think?

thorwil
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Re: Changing the mouse commands

Post by thorwil »

Monkeyboi wrote: 1, Make LMB the selection button.
2, Make LMB do a borderselect when you drag
Sometimes it still happens to me that I try to select with LMB in Blender. But far more often I try to select with RMB in other apps. And I'm rather a poweruser and used to deal with inconsistencies (dual-boot linux/win and than there are some macs at university ...). Can only be worse for people with less experience!

A possible drag for border or lasso selection must go together with simple selection. I'm all for asigning both to LMB (the combination or no change at all!).
3, Move the 'set 3d cursor' command from LMB to RMB
Or assign 'set 3d cursor' to some R/LMB + modifier-key. And use RMB for a context-menu liked everywhere else. It could be radial, with the most useful options like in Maya.
4, Get rid of the gestures completely, or move them to RMB drag
Having gizmos/manipulators would render those gestures completely obsolete. What is the best implementation of transformation gizmos known to mankind?

neil
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Post by neil »

I use the drag for moving things alot, sometimes I will also use the gesture for rotate but always S-KEY for scale as it is difficult to make the distinction between the scale and rotate gesture. It is quite strange that the left button doesn't do the main things (like select) but I wouldn't like to see it changing or it would become like learning a new program - all the actions that are automatic would need to be relearnt, however if you were to have the option I suppose it would be OK (although it would make documentation more awkward if such things weren't consistent).

Neil.

Monkeyboi
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Post by Monkeyboi »

Sometimes it still happens to me that I try to select with LMB in Blender. But far more often I try to select with RMB in other apps. And I'm rather a poweruser and used to deal with inconsistencies (dual-boot linux/win and than there are some macs at university ...). Can only be worse for people with less experience!

Yeah, but this is very specific: pretty much every application in the world uses RMB for extra options. Blender uses Space. Typical..

A possible drag for border or lasso selection must go together with simple selection. I'm all for asigning both to LMB (the combination or no change at all!).
Agreed! We really should have an option for old users to stick with the current menchanics though

And use RMB for a context-menu liked everywhere else. It could be radial, with the most useful options like in Maya.
Yes, good idea! It would also omprove consistency within Blender (We already use RMB for splitting windows and a few other things). I do really stress that there definately should be an 'old' option for users who are very used to the current interface and how it works.

So, we replace the spacebar command with RMB. Good idea! This would also for example make rightclicking in the textwindow possible (currently the space bar is used for.. erh... space)


Having gizmos/manipulators would render those gestures completely obsolete. What is the best implementation of transformation gizmos known to mankind?
I agree!! I think the Softimage XSI manipulators are supposed to be very good. I havn't tried the Maya ones though..

levon
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Post by levon »

the modifiyers in maya are good, but i think blender is more efective and quicker to use

luckybreak
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Re: Changing the mouse commands

Post by luckybreak »

Monkeyboi wrote: To sum up, this is what I think we should do:

1, Make LMB the selection button.
2, Make LMB do a borderselect when you drag
3, Move the 'set 3d cursor' command from LMB to RMB
4, Get rid of the gestures completely, or move them to RMB drag
5, Have an option to enable the old way of doing this for people who are used to the old way.
Agreed

xand
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Post by xand »

space bar for menu or other action is wellspread in pro software, i use it in autocad and solidworks. i use a lot gesture not only in blender. apart in win, the rmb is not set for context menu.
this settings are very productive.
like a lot of software, blender is one hand on the mouse, one hand on the keyboard.

+++

mmelo
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Post by mmelo »

xand wrote:like a lot of software, blender is one hand on the mouse, one hand on the keyboard.
I certainly agree with that, that's why I think gestures are not really needed: people are better off using the keys - and leaving the LMB for select. And it could work as

- LMB+drag - Make selection
- LMB+Shift+drag - Add to selection (like photoshop/photopaint)
- LMB+Ctrl/Alt+drag - Remove from selection (like photoshop/photopaint)

Because deselecting in Blender is a pain...

I agree that RMB for menu is slightly less of a standard (but growing), so we might want to leave it vacant for something other than the equivalente to SpaceKey (to keep Windows bashers happy :D )... maybe cursor 3d, as Monkeyboi suggested. But it COULD launch the new radial menus that people have been talking about, (I believe the 2.29 dev code did this for a while)...

And while we are at it, can we please, please make the editmode cursor NOT be a thin grey on grey cross? I'd like to see it sometime and not just guess where it is :twisted:
Last edited by mmelo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

ideasman
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Post by ideasman »

<2c>
First of all I am quite happy the way blender is-

The only problem I have with guesture on LMB is that its not that much point in getting used to using it when only a handfull of operations are supported.
I think that many more gestures need to be added to make it worth using.

Things that could be added.
Flip normals
Remove doubles
Merge
Duplicate
Linked Dupe

etc...

-Cam

</2c>

Goofster
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Post by Goofster »

eeek, some scary suggestions here.

Basically I disagree with everything on monkeyboi's list :)
DON'T screw around with LMB/RMB selection/cursor stuff pleaaaase.
Lasso select would be nice tho, maybe as an RMB+modifier-gesture.

Roel

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