LMB-drag movements: does anyone really use them??

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niket
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2002 4:36 pm

Post by niket »

Goofster wrote: DON'T screw around with LMB/RMB selection/cursor stuff pleaaaase.
Lasso select would be nice tho, maybe as an RMB+modifier-gesture.
But it time to review really usefulness of LMB. spacebar does much same work as LMB. I never used mouse guesture because it's confusing see "mozilla" or "opera" case. very straight forward use of mouse guestures.

Monkeyboi
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Post by Monkeyboi »

eeek, some scary suggestions here.

Basically I disagree with everything on monkeyboi's list
DON'T screw around with LMB/RMB selection/cursor stuff pleaaaase.
Lasso select would be nice tho, maybe as an RMB+modifier-gesture.

Roel

You need to relax. Sit down and think. Is it more logical and convinient to have selection with LMB, and boundbox selection with LMB drag? Is it more convenient to move the set 3d cursor command and gestures away from the primary mouse button LMB?

I think it is. The 3D cursor is a useful tool for choosing where to add new objects, and to use as a rotatation point, but having it on the primary mose button is just not justifiable. For new people, it is much better to learn how to select objects before you learn to set the 3d cursor. Using LMB to select is also a wide standard - most programs use this for selecting.

Gestures:
It seems that gestures are not used by very many, and the usefulness of them doesn't justify them being placed on the primary mouse button (or being there at all). Using G,S and R instead of gestures is much faster and easier. We really don't need these gestures at all. Adding more gestures is a bad idea I think. It will only get harder to to distiguish between them and harder to remember them (I can imagine the gesture for recalculating normals will be a horrible one).

Don't worry. We should only improve the bad things and keep the good. I think it will be much more logical and easier to figure out if selection/boundbox selection is moved to LMB. I can also imagine it being faster.
I again stress that we should keep the old mouse setup for old users to select as a preference.

-Monkeyboi

Goofster
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 12:26 pm

Post by Goofster »

Monkeyboi wrote: [SNIP]
You need to relax. Sit down and think. Is it more logical and convinient to have selection with LMB, and boundbox selection with LMB drag? Is it more convenient to move the set 3d cursor command and gestures away from the primary mouse button LMB?

I think it is.
[SNIP]
-Monkeyboi
I think it is but, that's not my point. RMB selection and LMB for cursor movement is such a fundamental part of blender that (imho) it would be unwise to change those combos.

Roel

theeth
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Location: Montreal
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Post by theeth »

Monkeyboi wrote:<snip>
I can also imagine it being faster.
unless you have only one finger and keep switching between both mouse buttons, I don't see how it can be faster to click the LMB instead of the RMB.

Excluding 1 button Mac mouse, of course... *shudders*

Martin
Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans.
- John Lennon

sedgetone
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:09 pm

Post by sedgetone »

I'd like to keep the gestures as I use a pen and tablet 99% of the time. I find these to be really handy, otherwise I agree with Monkeyboi.

Sedgetone

thorwil
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:30 am

Post by thorwil »

sedgetone wrote:I'd like to keep the gestures as I use a pen and tablet 99% of the time.
I think LMB/RMB usage should be swapped. And then the gestures could be improved, or replaced by a radial context-sensitive menu (not the Toolbox, but much more specialised).

For improving gestures: after a short delay of holding the mouse-button down the possible gestures could be shown as a overlay map near the mouse-cursor.

Radial menus allow selections becoming gestures, but the best way to push that are marking menus, and far as I know Alias has a patent on them. :-(
Does anybody know more about that (googling didn't bring up anything useful so far)?

MikaMTB
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:55 pm

Re: Changing the mouse commands

Post by MikaMTB »

Monkeyboi wrote: 1, Make LMB the selection button.
2, Make LMB do a borderselect when you drag
3, Move the 'set 3d cursor' command from LMB to RMB
4, Get rid of the gestures completely, or move them to RMB drag
5, Have an option to enable the old way of doing this for people who are used to the old way.
I agree. I don't see what reasons people could have to stand against this since there would be the option for the "old" system. It would really help people get into Blender faster.

Pablosbrain
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:39 pm

Post by Pablosbrain »

If your gonna change the mouse button assignments... I would recommend doing something similar to what Wings3D has done. Or make it completely customizable for the user. I like the fact that Wings3D makes it easy to make the program match the functionality of whatever other 3D application you may be using. This makes it easy to fit it into your workflow. I happen to like the way the mouse works in blender. But if it were configurable... just like the interface and themes... I would be much happier and so would others.

meestaplu
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:45 pm
Location: CT

Post by meestaplu »

I don't use the mouse gestures, and I do think they're fairly pointless on a laptop or desktop machine. However, they are useful if you run Blender on a PDA, or similar device that lacks a keyboard. I have never done that, so I can't really comment on whether or not that is even a viable thing to do.
Pablosbrain wrote:I like the fact that Wings3D makes it easy to make the program match the functionality of whatever other 3D application you may be using.
I don't think Blender should try to emulate all the other 3d programs out there; it can't just be a clone, or a wannabe me-too type of program. Blender development should concentrate on doing things in the best way possible, not in the most common way. Features such as the 3d cursor illustrate the type of thought that needs to happen. I couldn't stand 3ds max because of the lack of a 3d cursor -- you can't rotate around an arbitrary point, center the view, or zoom based a given center in a convenient or expedient fashion. I think the 3d cursor is an important enough function to keep mapped to the left mouse button.

Regarding the issue of the spacebar vs. right clicking to bring up a menu:
I think context menus are a severely overrated concept in Windows programming -- always mapped to the right mouse button, and usually only marginally useful. The mouse buttons could be doing much more useful things than popping up a list of simple options that are much faster to execute with a keystroke. Furthermore, "context menus" are the only type of menu in most applications that will appear directly under (or at least near) the mouse cursor postion. Everything else pops up in the center of the screen (or some equally useless location), and you have to move the mouse over and press "OK" or "Cancel", or choose an option. Blender's method of placing all dialogs under the mouse cursor is much more convenient; features like this allow it to stand out as efficient and fast.

The current mapping of mouse buttons to functions emphasizes the difference between workflow in Blender and workflow in most applications such as 3ds max.

Most "industry standard" applications map selection, executing an action (such as moving) and accepting the action to the left mouse button. The mode is global; you work in "move mode" for a while, then in "rotate mode" for a while, executing actions in each mode. This is very inefficient since choosing a mode and executing an action can be done in one step. The right mouse button is reserved for "quads" or other glorified names for context menus.

Blender does compact mode selection and execution into one step; to move an object the user simply presses 'g'. Switching to rotation mode involves simply pressing 'r', etc. Pressing the left mouse button never executes any action (it accepts changes effected by an action, but it does not initiate the action). Therefore, its purpose must be made unique; moving around the 3d cursor is a perfect candidate. It modifies where an action will be performed (adding an object, centering the view, etc), or how that action will be performed (warping an object).

These differences in workflow demand a unique interface. Bottom line: selection and 3d cursor movement are not miscible. If the clicking the RMB selects, then dragging the RMB should bandbox select or lasso. If things were changed and the RMB were mapped to moving the 3d cursor, then dragging it should not perform a bandbox select.

Sorry about this ramble; I just feel strongly about the purpose of the mouse.

Matt

Pablosbrain
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:39 pm

Post by Pablosbrain »

As you said...
Blender development should concentrate on doing things in the best way possible,
Making it configurable makes it easy for people. If I use Max or Maya or Houdini or [Name Your App Here] for part of my workflow but would also like to use Wings3D or Blender then it just makes sense that it would make it more productive if I could interact with the program in a familiar way. I'm not saying lets clone every feature... But make it so the user can choose. It will make things easier in the long run for hard core users. The newbies can still learn from the defaults and those hard core users will understand that they modified the settings and that it might vary from any tutorials they use.
I couldn't stand 3ds max because of the lack of a 3d cursor
That is your preference... And you would be able to have it set any way you like.

I personally have grown accustomed to the way the mouse works in blender and have Wings3D set to function the same way. It makes it faster for me to use as I'm not switching mind sets on how to move objects around. But the menus function differently and thats great... cuz they are two different programs... but that little bit of similar functionality I was able to choose makes it much simpler and fun to use!

Note: Be carefull to only click submit once or you'll get these double posts.

meestaplu
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:45 pm
Location: CT

Post by meestaplu »

Pablosbrain wrote:It will make things easier in the long run for hard core users. The newbies can still learn from the defaults and those hard core users will understand that they modified the settings and that it might vary from any tutorials they use.
Point well taken. I'm just afraid that newbies will configure it from the beginning and not learn it the right way. That's not how people should learn this program; the shortcuts are uncommonly well thought out. For hardcore users, yes, that functionality would be well-received.

Double posts...errgghh. :?

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