new EDIT-mode

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

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solmax
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new EDIT-mode

Post by solmax »

we finally have it - edge and face select! thumbs up to everyone who made this possible.

so great the feature is, so strange the UI-implementation is. the CTRL-TAB invoked pop-up menu is probably the slowest way (after the window-icons in the header) to change selection mode.

first, it's not a "comfortable" key-combination. second, it doesn't have at least an instant result (like it does with switching to pose-mode), but is the intermediate step and gives a menu, from which we select the desired selection mode.

could we please try the "cycling" selection method? i've proposed it a couple of times here in the forums. it's also not 100% blender-like, but much faster (and more comfortable) IMO. so this would be:

1st TAB: enter edit mode, with vertex selection mode
2nd TAB: switch to edges
3rd TAB: switch to faces
4th TAB: exit edit mode.

SHIFT+TAB (or CTRL+TAB) reverses the cycling direction.

at least in one direction, switching can be done incredibly fast - selecting edges is done in the fration of a second. just try for yourself how much time you need to press TAB once, twice or three times.

best regards

marin

ideasman
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Post by ideasman »

I suggest the [ / and ?] Key

Its not used for anything yet- Locale view is Fwdslash on the numpad. - To remove confusion
- EDIT- Yes Cycling with a single key is what I meant. Lightwatve uses teh spacebar for this, but any free key would do.
Last edited by ideasman on Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

halibut
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Post by halibut »

Why not have an option to use cycling instead? no I can't code :(

Bellorum
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Post by Bellorum »

I still fail to see how this would solve anything. If there should be another solution, it should be a direct hotkey approach. Cycling just opens up for too many accidental annoying workflow "speedbumps" for lack of a better word.
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

joeri
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Post by joeri »

I suggest:
No popups to enter modes.
No cycling truw modes.
(Actualy best is: no modes at all. Blender used to have 2 modes now we are drifting into pupups for 8 different modes ? bad bad bad! )

It's a bad thing if more features mean more difficult to activate them.

I agree with ideasman:
TAB -> in vertex editmode, Tab again -> object mode
/ -> in edge edit mode, / again -> object mode
? -> in face edit mode, ? again -> object mode

but TAB in face edit mode will put blender in vertex edit mode.
and / in face edit mode will put blender in edge edit mode. etc.

solmax
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Post by solmax »

disagree

first, you have to respect all keyboard layouts (german, english etc.. special characters often are on different places).
second, tab and / or ? are on opposite directions of the keyboard, but for a very similar function. this wouldn't be good, then i'd rather use the current menu.

joeris/ideasman's proposal would invoke two new different keys.

what speaks against cycling? it's a proven concept (LW users know), it's fast and it doesnt force me to jump around the keyboard for a very common operation.

if we want to avoid modes, it has to be done as in wings. however, this makes selection more complicated on dense meshes - you have to spend more time on targeting.

another possibility is using gestures. maya has something similar - marking menus. once you know where the entries are, you don't even look at them, only the direction you pull the mouse is relevant, so it comes down to a gesture. unfortunately, maya's implementation is patented, but maybe the patent could be avoided if we stick to gestures only (without menus).
so tabbing would enter edit mode, and gestures (down, left, right) would switch to verteces, edges, faces. drawback is that a lienar gesture currently invokes grab, but i'm not sure if many ppl use this.

alt

Post by alt »

>unfortunately, maya's implementation is patented

what exactly is patented?
pie menus (sector menus) are used a lot in games, too. and they were not invented by alias, i think.

i remember that only the line that is drawn from the center of the menu to mark the direction is patented.
hard to believe that you could patent something like that, though.

one of these days i move to US wonderland and patent "the use of sequences consisting individual images (called shots from here on) which are then arranged after each other in such a way that they seem to be related and appear to have meaning, not because of individual content of the shots(1), but because they are viewed one after another"

and then i make a fortune. and get tax-cuts.

rcas
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Post by rcas »

alt wrote:...hard to believe that you could patent something like that, though...
You wouldn't believe most of the patents approved for Microsoft... but they are patented, great lobbies...
How to use a Blender:
Put your model, rig, animation and textures in the Blender, turn the Blender on and wait for it to Render, then turn the Blender off and show it to your friends.

Dani
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Post by Dani »

I agree that the implementation of the UI of this new tool is far from optimal. There are two main problems:

Switching from one mode to the other is slow workflowise.
Selections (if you hold shift and click on the three verts/edge/faces selection type buttons) mess up...

I have suggested one simple rule. This rules allows merging the three selection modes (verts/edges...) into one:

RULE : When you're doing a selection of many "elements" (by "elements" understand verts/edges/faces) you can only select one type of element (or verts, or edges, or faces) that is of the same type as the first element selected, and this until the selection is cleared (Akey). When the mesh is clear of any selection then again the user can select another type of element

This rule accepts two exceptions. These concern the conversion of a selection between one mode and the other (using modifier+spacebar or something like that). The rule doesn't forbid the CONVERSION of selections from a slection type to another.

what do you think?

Dani

Monkeyboi
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Post by Monkeyboi »

To be perfectly honest, the way it's already implemented sounds alot easier and more flexible. I find it very fast and comfortable to work with.

All these auto-mode proposals have letdowns:

1, switching selections from vert mode to face mode (for example) is easy - just switch to the mode you want and the appropriate elements are selected. Would not be possible or complicated with the proposed workflow.

2, Three modes speed up workflow, it doesn't make it slower. It's alot faster to select faces now than before. Not even does it let us do selections that were previousely impossible, but it's also clear what you are working with. I can imagine quite some confusion and frustration if you are locked to a specific element once you have selected one.

Dani
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Post by Dani »

Hi!

Monkeyboi: thanks for your comments!
1, switching selections from vert mode to face mode (for example) is easy - just switch to the mode you want and the appropriate elements are selected. Would not be possible or complicated with the proposed workflow.
This can be conserved from the current implementation...
2, Three modes speed up workflow, it doesn't make it slower. It's alot faster to select faces now than before. Not even does it let us do selections that were previousely impossible, but it's also clear what you are working with. I can imagine quite some confusion and frustration if you are locked to a specific element once you have selected one.
Hum, honestly, I feel the complete opposite way ;)
Tabbing (rolling) through the three different modes or clicking on the icons is what slows me down.
There's no doubt that selecting faces is easier than before - once you're in Face Select Mode -
But if you're not in Face Mode and you need to go there just to work on a few faces, then need to change to edge-mode to quickly select some edges and apply a crease then you loose time... at least do I (but I may not be an ace at clicking precisely on those buttons).

I understand that the, what's its name? , the Complete-Mode (verts+edges+faces all at the same time) is meant to solve this, but in this mode, try the following:

add a cube... apply subsurfs on it (level 3 to have a nive ball) and, with the three modes on, select two opposite edges of a face and try to crease... surprise: ALL four edges of the face get creased even if you only selected two of them... this is because Blender understands that you selected the vertices, and of course, vertices describe edges and therefore even if you selected two edges, Blender considers the crease is applied to the four edges that share those verts...
Selections get messed up, you cannot apply effects precisely on the elements selected...
The rule above is only meant to solve (or at least point in a direction that could solve) this stuff of selections messing up in Complete-Mode.

And how confusing is it if,once you have selected an element, you're, in the worst cases, two very quick clicks away from an other type of element: one click to cancel the selection and the other the select a new element.

The Complete Mode seems to be -IMHO- a mode that satisfies those who don't want to switch from a mode to the other all the time. Whereas the, hum, Elements-Mode is for those who, well, work the other way... honestly, shouldn't both type of users be satisfied?

Dani

ps: why is "z-clipped selection" limited to solid view? it should also be available in wireframe.

MNME
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Post by MNME »

This is definatly somewhere that 'keep it simple stupid' thinking is essential. were all going to be doing it hundreds of times every day.... at least... those of us who do a lot of mesh work.
Ideally, we could just pick 3 keys in a row, one for each mode, but... as we all know... thats simply not going to happen... so one key to swtich thru the modes has got to be the most practicle option.

tab key going Object>Vert>Edge>Fave>Object etc, sounds painfull, imagine doing that every 10 seconds for more than, oh.. lets say 50 seconds :/
so... tab Object>Edit and another key for the modes.... as theres only 3 modes, theres only need to hit this key twice, so.. its really not gunna kill anyone.

then take into account what keys are most accessable..... once im in a modlin groove, the last thing i want to do is start moving my hand all round the keyboard.
At the moment, it sits on the left hand side, hovering over G,S,R and B, that gives me tab nice n close on the little finger.
From that... the ideal key to switch thru the group is alt tab.... but... mr MS.. he say no to that.
I doubt the \ key is tucked in the bottom left corner on all boards, so... i think its got to be eithor ctrl or shift and tab.. of the two, i would say ctrl simply coz its more exposed and its harder to accidently hit other keys reaching under my hand with my thumb.

At least... thats what i think ;)

Some form of mouse over in the 3d window could work too.
Such as, ctrl and mouse over mesh, (maybe with blender highlighting what will be selected if you click now), then lock into that mode as discribed above.
but.. that needs to be additional for ppl who like to work like that, certinaly not the primary interface.

Kenden
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Post by Kenden »

How about use the key at the left of the '1' key? ('~' for US keyboards)?
At the moment it is used to select all layers at the same time.
I doubt that it is used very often...

This keys is very well located, so we could use it for something more useful, like... changing the selection mode, in edit mode.

- If we decide for cycling, fine, this is better then Ctrl-Tab (only one key).
- If we decide for a menu, this is better too, as this key is next to 1, 2 and 3, which allow selecting menu items.

My two cents,
kenden

solmax
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Post by solmax »

Kenden wrote:How about use the key at the left of the '1' key? ('~' for US keyboards)?
At the moment it is used to select all layers at the same time.
I doubt that it is used very often...

This keys is very well located, so we could use it for something more useful, like... changing the selection mode, in edit mode.

- If we decide for cycling, fine, this is better then Ctrl-Tab (only one key).
- If we decide for a menu, this is better too, as this key is next to 1, 2 and 3, which allow selecting menu items.
sounds good. only, it doesn't do anything here under OSX (within blender). i remember it used to switch to local-mode back in 225 on a PC.. hell yes, i never use this key anyway, and it's position is REALLY prominent and easy to reach. also the fact it's close to 123.. i'd say this sounds like a really good idea.

you ppl what do you say?

Bellorum
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Post by Bellorum »

How about use the key at the left of the '1' key? ('~' for US keyboards)?
At the moment it is used to select all layers at the same time.
I doubt that it is used very often...

This keys is very well located, so we could use it for something more useful, like... changing the selection mode, in edit mode.

- If we decide for cycling, fine, this is better then Ctrl-Tab (only one key).
- If we decide for a menu, this is better too, as this key is next to 1, 2 and 3, which allow selecting menu items.
I would third that, but there's an aber, as always:) I don't know if the blender shortcuts are mapped to the actual key, rather than the symbol it produces. Rather hard to explain:/ For instance, on my keyboard that key gives me a § which is not the same symbol. Gah, I'm not making much sense here, am I?:/ Otherwise I think the location of the key is perfect, and I never use it anyways, so;)
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

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