Organic Modelling Requests (Not Work Safe)

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philovivero
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Organic Modelling Requests (Not Work Safe)

Post by philovivero » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:35 am

I read the sticky topic that says to go to the feature request tracker, but I get "Permission Denied" -- so I guess I still don't know if these feature requests are tracked. I have asked for at least one before. Sorry to sound like a broken record.

I have made a fairly complex model (.blend available on my site, http://faemalia.net/Blender), rigged her, posed her, and rendered her. In some poses, she looks fine, but in others, not.

Mostly the problems I have are at universal joints (neck, shoulder, hip, ankle). The joint only looks good for small ranges of motion. Larger ranges of motion, and I need to start "hacking" the mesh using strangely-placed unnatural "bones" in the armature. Here is a final render (thumbnail):

Image

(the full image is at http://www.faemalia.net/Blender/BashfulAndBold.jpg).

As you can see, the model is fairly complex and fairly well-rigged. So. Now on to the feature requests. I am placing these in more or less order of desire:

1. Morph Targets. This is largely the same as Relative Vertex Keys, except I would like to be able to tie the range of motion of the joint to the RVK target. Something like RVK1=ArmForward, RVK2=ArmUp; now tie the X,Z rotation value of the upper arm armature bone to RVK1,RVK2, such that if the arm is 20% up, 40% forward, then the vertexes are morphed 20% into the "ArmUp" RVK, and 40% into the ArmForward RVK.

2. Solving the same problem as #1, mostly, and hence I would consider this an "alternate" to #1. Allow only one end of a bone to be child to another bone, such that if the parent bone moves, only one end of the child bone moves.

3. Symmetry within the vertex mesh (do not use Duplicate-Linked!) -- Copy all attributes from one vertex to its symmetric twin, such as vertex weights, vertex colour, etc.

4. Bone Strength on Axis. That is, if I twist the bone on its Y axis, it only deforms the mesh by say 20% the twist, but if I turn it on its X or Z axis, it will deform the mesh by the normal amount. This is to emulate how bones actually work under our skin and muscles.

5. 5-gons in edit mode. This seems like a Very Hard feature request, and I don't expect to see it, but damn it would be nice a lot of the time.

6. Particles follow armature pose. Right now particles can follow the root-most bone of an armature, but they don't follow the bends and twists of the armature. If the particles follow the armature bones, they should still retain their other constraints like bouncing off of other objects. This solves the problem of hair (actual flowing hair, styled into a certain shape, but still flowing over the shoulders and down the arms, for example).

Please! These features would rule my world. And like I say, the .blend for my renders are all available in a commercial-free license from my website (http://faemalia.net/Blender) so if you want to download the mesh/armature to see what I've done and learn, feel free.

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philovivero

z3r0_d
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Re: Organic Modelling Requests (Not Work Safe)

Post by z3r0_d » Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm

philovivero wrote:I read the sticky topic that says to go to the feature request tracker, but I get "Permission Denied" -- so I guess I still don't know if these feature requests are tracked. I have asked for at least one before. Sorry to sound like a broken record.
I think the feature request tracker and bugtracker are both on the projects.blender.org page which requires its own login
philovivero wrote:2. Solving the same problem as #1, mostly, and hence I would consider this an "alternate" to #1. Allow only one end of a bone to be child to another bone, such that if the parent bone moves, only one end of the child bone moves.
but how would the other end of the child bone move?

if it doesn't, why not use a track to constraint?
philovivero wrote:3. Symmetry within the vertex mesh (do not use Duplicate-Linked!) -- Copy all attributes from one vertex to its symmetric twin, such as vertex weights, vertex colour, etc.
It would be nice to be able to not see that seam as well, oh well

I assume you already know about how to use a duplicate object for the other half of a mesh you have rigged?
after tweaking it all you like [vertex groups, weights...], duplicate and mirror it, then in edit mode [on the duplicate] rename the groups to be for that half of the mesh [if planned ahead it would be to replace .L with .R or .Left with .Right, which could probably be easily automated]
philovivero wrote:4. Bone Strength on Axis. That is, if I twist the bone on its Y axis, it only deforms the mesh by say 20% the twist, but if I turn it on its X or Z axis, it will deform the mesh by the normal amount. This is to emulate how bones actually work under our skin and muscles.
what would the interface to this look like? [how is it just an influence slider for each axis? seems kinda weird to implement to me, would be more of a "limit motion to 20% of what you would really think"]
philovivero wrote:5. 5-gons in edit mode. This seems like a Very Hard feature request, and I don't expect to see it, but damn it would be nice a lot of the time.
yeah, it would

maybe you should try wings3d?
http://www.wings3d.com/
philovivero wrote:6. Particles follow armature pose. Right now particles can follow the root-most bone of an armature, but they don't follow the bends and twists of the armature. If the particles follow the armature bones, they should still retain their other constraints like bouncing off of other objects. This solves the problem of hair (actual flowing hair, styled into a certain shape, but still flowing over the shoulders and down the arms, for example).
iirc a couple releases ago static particles [and dynamic ones] could be properly emitted from subsurfs which were armature deformed [there is a vid on blender3d.org http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Misc_impro ... 355.0.html ]

but, I don't know if the particle deflection features work as you'd like on static particles on an animated armature [particle reflection was the next release after that one, ...]

philovivero
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Answers to Questions

Post by philovivero » Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:32 am

2. Solving the same problem as #1, mostly, and hence I would consider this an "alternate" to #1. Allow only one end of a bone to be child to another bone, such that if the parent bone moves, only one end of the child bone moves.
but how would the other end of the child bone move? if it doesn't, why not use a track to constraint?
The other end is parented to another bone. At this point, this strange bone that has two parents is not a bone anymore, but a ligament. Or muscle. Or otherwise some structure in the body that's attached to two bones.

I would, in the future, hope that another feature would be added on top of this such that as this special "bone" gets stretched, it reduces its X,Z scaling such that the mesh around it gets smaller as it stretches.

Until then, I can manually tweak such parameters.
I assume you already know about how to use a duplicate object for the other half of a mesh you have rigged?
I do not have the skill to rig half a mesh. I cannot imagine at the part where it blends with another half how the curves should be, such that when I finally make the other half and attach it, it looks horrible.

I need to be able to see both halves being affected at the same time.

I know this is hard due to parts of the mesh where there is no symmetry (the belly button, for example, I like to be non-symmetric and it lies right on the centerline of symmetry). I think it's possible, though, when you grab a set of vertexes and say "Yes, these normally should be symmetric, but I'm breaking the symmetry here."
4. Bone Strength on Axis. That is, if I twist the bone on its Y axis, it only deforms the mesh by say 20% the twist, but if I turn it on its X or Z axis, it will deform the mesh by the normal amount. This is to emulate how bones actually work under our skin and muscles.
what would the interface to this look like? [how is it just an influence slider for each axis? seems kinda weird to implement to me, would be more of a "limit motion to 20% of what you would really think"]
Yes, I think a slider saying "limit motion to X% of what you would think" is perfect. And honestly, it doesn't seem it'd be that hard to implement.
maybe you should try wings3d?
http://www.wings3d.com/
Only if it has all the power of Blender. I did try it once, and it seemed really slim on the features. I already have about four months of time invested in learning Blender and all its oddities. I don't want to learn another package unless I can be sure it'll do everything Blender does and more. I even tried zbrush for a while and am unconvinced it'd be better. I think zbrush has far more features for organic modelling than Wings3D.
iirc a couple releases ago static particles [and dynamic ones] could be properly emitted from subsurfs which were armature deformed
I am aware of that, and it isn't sufficient. Try it if you don't believe me. Create a subsurf, parent it to armature, and have it emit particles. You'll end up with a fuzzy hot-dog, *NOT* long, flowing hair.

The subsurf emit static particles feature is only good for fur and completely unstyled hair.

I want an emitter at one end of a multi-bone armature that emits particles that attempt to follow the curves of the armature along with the other constraints.

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philovivero

theeth
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Re: Answers to Questions

Post by theeth » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:21 pm

philovivero wrote:The other end is parented to another bone. At this point, this strange bone that has two parents is not a bone anymore, but a ligament. Or muscle. Or otherwise some structure in the body that's attached to two bones.

I would, in the future, hope that another feature would be added on top of this such that as this special "bone" gets stretched, it reduces its X,Z scaling such that the mesh around it gets smaller as it stretches.

Until then, I can manually tweak such parameters.
The StrechTo constraint does exactly that.

Martin
Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans.
- John Lennon

LetterRip
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Post by LetterRip » Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:41 am

Hi phil,
3. Symmetry within the vertex mesh (do not use Duplicate-Linked!) -- Copy all attributes from one vertex to its symmetric twin, such as vertex weights, vertex colour, etc.
I posted a script the other day that will mirror some properties (it was just a quickie for helping makehuman) to the blender scripts list, and it would be trivial to extend it to mirror the others, but if you check the animation forum, it looks like there is a much more robust script. Let me know if it doesn't meet your needs and I'd be happy to help modify either of the scripts for you.

LetterRip

philovivero
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stretch to constraint?

Post by philovivero » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:21 am

The other end is parented to another bone. At this point, this strange bone that has two parents is not a bone anymore, but a ligament. Or muscle. Or otherwise some structure in the body that's attached to two bones.

I would, in the future, hope that another feature would be added on top of this such that as this special "bone" gets stretched, it reduces its X,Z scaling such that the mesh around it gets smaller as it stretches.

Until then, I can manually tweak such parameters.
The StrechTo constraint does exactly that.
StretchTo Constraint...? Okay, I just did a Google search. It looks like it's a patch that was submitted to the BF-blender branch in September? I assume it's not in 2.34? (I could not find it anyway).

That's great that it's coming, though! Another feature I can shut up about! Woohoo!
I posted a script the other day that will mirror some properties (it was just a quickie for helping makehuman) to the blender scripts list, and it would be trivial to extend it to mirror the others, but if you check the animation forum, it looks like there is a much more robust script. Let me know if it doesn't meet your needs and I'd be happy to help modify either of the scripts for you.
Thanks for the offer LetterRip. I've had zero success figuring out how to get scripts to work (I was very interested in the zblur script). I can figure out how to activate the builtins, but haven't been able to figure out how to add a new script into Blender. Thanks for the offer, one day I'm sure I'll figure it out, and I'll be thanking you then. :)

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philovivero

theeth
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Re: stretch to constraint?

Post by theeth » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:59 pm

philovivero wrote:StretchTo Constraint...? Okay, I just did a Google search. It looks like it's a patch that was submitted to the BF-blender branch in September? I assume it's not in 2.34? (I could not find it anyway).
Not sure if it's in 2.34 or not, but it's was in CVS for a long time now and will be in 2.35 when it ships.

Martin
Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans.
- John Lennon

blendman
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Post by blendman » Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:07 pm

Hello
for "stretch to" constraint, try to download the testing build :
http://web.netrevolution.com/gbeloin/el ... 041029.zip

or go to the forum : http://www.blender.org/modules.php?op=m ... pic&t=4895 :)

But perhap's to explain (better ;)) all the features you want, you could try to make a screenshot (not real, but as it should be (for you)), on your site, like other users have made. For example :
http://www.neeneenee.de/blender/features/

--Sorry for my english--

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