On Exit: Do you want to save?

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

GusM
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 2:16 pm

Post by GusM » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:05 pm

It can be much more easy:

"File unsaved: Save/Quit"

That´s all we need... and if you want, make it just a user preference.

I cannot see how can this disturb anyone.
Gustavo Muñoz

ton
Site Admin
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:13 am
Contact:

Post by ton » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:19 pm

Couple of notes. :)

- if default Windows install of Blender doesn't allow to save the temp files or get the "restore" file, we have to fix the install instead.

- 99 out 100 times the "do you want to save before quit" is annoying and blocking a user. The fact this is standard doesn't make it good per definition. Check on Raskin's book on Humane Interface design to learn why it's a bad convention.

- our undo system is far from perfect yet, and will need some time to mature, before this can be even treated as a reliable method to find out if you have unsaved work pending to be saved

- I think the new "Recover Last Session" is a much better feature to survive accidental losses than a save-over warning is. Software shouldn't think for you.

- As discussed on the developers mailing list, the current undo architecture can even be used to fully dump its stack on disk on quit, and fully load it back on (re)start. I like to experiment with this, it could become a very nice option for persistant working, with file saving only needed at moments you actually decide it's needed to have frozen "backups". Again, something positively advised by UI theorists like Raskin, and something Blender can prove to be ahead of competitors.

- Last but not least; Blender has 100s of issues still with bad tools or bad UI conventions or bad workflow... let's tacke the important issues I'd say.

halibut
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:02 pm
Contact:

Post by halibut » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:49 pm

ilac wrote:
halibut wrote:The bottom line is, when windows users click on the close button, they are expecting the program to ask to save. As it is, blender is not what they expect and as far as they know they have lost their work.
Please don't put words in other peoples mouths. The only 'bottom line' is that YOU are not everyone so stop speaking for the rest of us 'windows' users. I love the fact that Blender just quits when I want it too. And please note that i use Blender daily at work so the possibility of 'losing' any work costs me/us a lot of time and money - yet it very, very rarely happens and I don't recall it ever happening because I closed Blender without saving.
Yes, sorry Ilac, I was specifically talking about people completly new to blender but did not make myself clear (I know of no other program that is like blender in this sense so it is likely that a save dialogue is what most are expecting).

GusM
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 2:16 pm

Post by GusM » Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:15 pm

I am sorry, but I sincerely cannot understand how the "Save before quit" option coul be annoying and blocking a user... If I open a project and work on it, I expect to have it saved. If I just forget to do so, I really expect the program to advice me. We have the temporal backup feature if we want to go back in a project´s history, so what would really make sense is Blender saving all the changes at quitting. But I can understand somebody can say this could be annoying... so, build the save/quit simple solution and everybody could be happy. It is a good feature "per se", that´s why it has become a standar. The same hapenned with the "undo"...

Actually, I would suggest to build up the same feature all over the UI of Blender, including the save picture path and everywhere where a name is involved. I use both Macs and Windows and I know for sure it is the expected behaviour anywhere. Why would anybody want the system (or any program) overwriting an existing file with the same name as a new one without even asking you to do so? For me, this is the same case.

The "Recover Last Session" is somehow redundant respect the automatic backup feature, but it shows that the user needs sometimes to "survive accidental losses", and the only reason is the lack of this simple "Save/quit" feature.

I for one think this is one of those 100s of things that must be resolved.

Best regards,
Gustavo Muñoz

-efbie-
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:47 pm

Post by -efbie- » Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:25 pm

It's a question of taste. When i showed blender to friends they said 'I like the way blender don't treat us like idiots. When i do something I know that it will do it, and not ask 100 times if i'm sure.

GusM
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 2:16 pm

Post by GusM » Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:00 pm

Blender is now allready asking you at quitting if you really want to quit: do you remember this last click? So do you think Blender is treating us as idiots? The same happenned with the undo feature... The fact you and some others can survive and even enjoy and taste the lack of those features doesn´t make them less usefull for the mayority of users.

Come on, I don´t feel like an idiot for using undos nor for asking for the Save/quit feature. Nobody is asking for 100 dialogs, it is just a second option for the last one. Maybe it can be more or less difficult to implement at this stage of Blender´s evolution, and this could be a real reason for not including it, but it is usefull for sure. Per se. For the vast mayority.

I am sorry if it sounds harsh, it is not my intention. But I really cannot understand the oposition to include in Blender such basic and usefull standarized features.

Best regards,
Gustavo Muñoz

-efbie-
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:47 pm

Post by -efbie- » Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:16 pm

GusM wrote: I am sorry if it sounds harsh, it is not my intention. But I really cannot understand the oposition to include in Blender such basic and usefull standarized features.

Best regards,
Gustavo Muñoz
Maybe because a lot of people wouldn't like this feature and there is more important things to do first ?

Zarf
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:54 am

Post by Zarf » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:33 am

z3r0_d wrote:
halibut wrote:All other windows programs I have used ask before quitting when changes have been made. It is what people expect, especially new users.
blender isn't supposed to be what people expect
Well a lot of times this is a very bad thing.

People get disoriented when programs don't follow certain basic conventions they see almost universally elsewhere. For instance Blender has its own file managment window instead of using the services provided by the OS. Not only does this make it a strain on the users who are used to seeing one type of file dialog on their computer no matter what the program is, it also means a *lot* of functionality is missing.(and yes you should be able to subclass the file dialogs of any modern OS to give them the capability to 'browse' the contents of a blend file for linking and embedding.)

Theres other things like Drag and drop and stuff like that I could go on about but I'm sure everyone knows this. The only point of contention seems to be on whether or not these things are *problems*. I find it humourous that people have suggested such modifications in the past and oftentimes ended up crucified by the community for suggesting that blender adopt any convention other than its own, but when those very same features end up in the official tree they are then almost universally praised as 'welcome change'.

C'mon guys, Blender needs to join the rest of the world, everyone wins that way.

(BTW I don't particularly care for a 'are you sure you want to quit' dialog but I think it should be an option that is turned *on* in the default .b.blend that ships with blender. The people who know enough can turn it off very easily, however the people it is most likely to appeal to won't know to look for it to turn it *on*)


Cheers,
Zarf

kidb
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:31 pm
Contact:

Post by kidb » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:28 pm

ton wrote:Couple of notes. :)

- 99 out 100 times the "do you want to save before quit" is annoying and blocking a user.
me too

ideasman
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:37 pm

Post by ideasman » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:28 pm

ton wrote:Couple of notes. :)
- 99 out 100 times the "do you want to save before quit" is annoying and blocking a user. The fact this is standard doesn't make it good per definition. Check on Raskin's book on Humane Interface design to learn why it's a bad convention.
I disagree- the W key is next to the Q key, this makes it a common mistake to quit instead of saving, at the time when you most dont want to loose your work.
(Or mearly reboot blender, texture loading etc-)

Also- quitting blender isnt somthing you do a lot of- certanly less thin saving.

- Just my point of view, Cam

malCanDo
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:44 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Post by malCanDo » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:31 pm

I've been introducing Blender recently to new 3d artists, and they have been caught out by having blender quit without any error messages quite a few times.

IMHO...

Blender shouldn't ask if the user wants to quit, if the user hasn't done anything.

If they have done something ( ie the undo stack isn't empty ), then ask the user if they want to save the scene before they quit ( as in [DO YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR SCENE? [YES][NO][CANCEL]].

As the interface is customisable, then allow advanced users to toggle this option off.

If a feature is useful for newbies, and is irritating for experienced users, have an option in the interface settings that allows the feature to be toggled off or on. This will allow the best of both worlds.

Just my 2 pennies...
Mal

bertram
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:03 am

Post by bertram » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:57 pm

(o) Don't show this message again.

:wink:

malCanDo
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:44 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Post by malCanDo » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:29 pm

> (o) Don't show this message again.

Yep, and a (o) Don't show this message again option on the same panel for easy, first time removal of the pop-up if required by the experts :)

Mal

joeri
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:41 pm
Contact:

Post by joeri » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:42 pm

Once again we have a "new user" / "old user" / "other software has it thus it's good" threat.

I'm totally happy with blender quitting when I ask it to quit.
Note I don't need to press "NO" if I don't want to quit.
Blender's dialog is superiour to other "yes, no" readers.
"Are you sure you don't want to save first?"
-- YES / NO --

And I'm very happy it does not ask me if I want coffee first or an intersect or save the file. See I did not ask for "save file", I told it to quit.

If blender tries to quit because I made a mistake (pressed Q not A, or the [X] not [_] (how can it know?)) or it wants to quit by itself (bad coding). Then a saved version of the last state I'm in, is very handy.
If this mistake happens often we should find a solution for that.

Windows (any version of them) tent to build functions in for the dummies among us; (I don't know if the user pressed [x] by mistake or not) and acts according to that.
If you can't see how that is a bad thing, then what do you expect from me? Do you want me to show why it's a bad thing, or is it "the truth"?

Other tools don't have thoose build in "you probably didn't want to do this"
features and software should mimic real life tools, not other virtual tools (right? or am I getting to old)

Power window users can start using these build in helpers as features and mistake them for features. "I never save my file anymore, I just press [x] for quit and it will ask me to save changed files."
Except not all software does that, and let's keep it that way, before we know it IE will ask if I want to bookmark this page when I close it.

Another issue is the "Let the expert turn it off" thing.
In my opinion something is not needed if it's okay to turn it off.
Maybe that's because I don't believe in software that explains itself.

Let the explaining be done by an expert, not an app that's 'two lefthands' to begin with. ;)

malCanDo
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:44 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Post by malCanDo » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:48 pm

> Another issue is the "Let the expert turn it off" thing.
> In my opinion something is not needed if it's okay to turn it off.
> Maybe that's because I don't believe in software that explains itself.

I do think that the option should be there for a) new users and b) for existing users who sometimes do make mistakes and accidently click the quit button.

- Let the explaining be done by an expert, not an app that's 'two lefthands' to - begin with.

We can include your e-mail address in the FAQ, so that they can get expert advice when Blender suddenly quits and they think they have lost their scene :)

My advice... if you are an expert, de-selecting the option will only get on your nerves once. For a new user, thinking that they have lost their scene may be the difference between them sticking at using Blender, and using another package instead.

Mal

Post Reply