On Exit: Do you want to save?

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

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joeri
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:41 pm
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Post by joeri » Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:08 pm

malCanDo wrote: For a new user, thinking that they have lost their scene may be the difference between them sticking at using Blender, and using another package instead.
Mal
You make it sound like that's a bad thing.
Iv'e read some pretty examples of what new users think and no "(o) Turn this off" will help against that.

They don't have my pitty if they lost a scene because they forgot to save it. Thats like being stranded on a highway because you forgot to put petrol in the car.
If you don't save your file you wouln't have it after you quit your app.
Seems like a good thing to learn to me.
>We can include your e-mail address in the FAQ, so that they can get expert advice when Blender suddenly quits and they think they have lost their scene.
My reply would be something like:
"O, you didn't save your file and now you want to load it? Well with blender you can."

pinhead_66
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:09 am
Location: Belgium

Post by pinhead_66 » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:39 pm

in blender you also have the autosave function, wich saves a file every time while you work, and since the fast saving, this is hardly or not noticable (unlike other applications)
and if you don't want save over previous versions, just give in the number of versions of the the file you want to keep

Blender is a program. You need to learn a new program. Some things are there, some not and in a lot of cases things exist for a good reason

the non existing 'do you want to save' popup on Q, means blender thinks you know the other options to save/resque etc.

Can things be better? Maybe yes, maybe no. I for one never got bothered by the quit function.
With putting options in for a lot of things, you'll also clutter the interface.

Its true, in te beginning you expect a save/quit dialog, but that's just a matter of time. After a while you learn to save while you work (wich in fact doesn't have to because of the autosave) and you quit when you want to quit

my 2 cents

malCanDo
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:44 pm
Location: Ireland
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Post by malCanDo » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:41 pm

A lot of my comments are based on the fact that I used to be very heavily involved with Blender, its interface and quirky ways ( when working at NaN ), then I didn't use it for a long time, and now I'm getting back into it.

However, this time I really realised just how difficult the interface is to learn ( again, or for the first time ).

I also have quite an interest in promoting Blender to students, who are the next generation of users ( 3D vendors have been accused of 'leaking' cracked versions of their software, to ensure that students install and become familiar with it at home, therefore have more experience with it when applying for a job ).


Being an expert user, it's very easy to remember how difficult Blender was to use at the start. By adding small features here and there ( that can be toggled off to revert to how it used to work for expert users ), and removing this barrier of entry, the popularity of Blender will increase drastically IMO.


Mal

dcuny
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:22 pm

Post by dcuny » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:47 pm

First of all, people's work is valuable. If a program wastes someone's time (by actually or apparently losing their work), they will rightfully be unhappy. They will stop using the application, and they will tell other people to stop using the program.

Put yourself into the mindset of a new user. You're already struggling with Blender, because it's a new application. As simple as the task may appear to be to an experienced user, it's complex to a newbie, because they are in a whole new environment. It's three in the morning, and they've had enough for the evening. The choose Exit, expecting Blender to prompt them to save their work. Or they choose "New" from the menu bar.

Instead of prompting them to save - like every other program on every other operating system - it closes down/clears the scene. They immediately assume they have lost all their work. Choice four-letter words will be used.

If they knew about auto backups, they could recover their work. But they don't know that Blender does this, so they don't even know to look for that option. They just assume that it's all gone, that Blender threw away all their hard work. They'll decide that, as cool as Blender might be, it's just not worth the possibility of losing all their work in a keystroke or two because Blender is different.

It won't matter if they are right or not. They will think the work is lost, and never touch Blender again. They'll decide (depending on who they are) that it's not appropriate for teaching in a classroom, using in a business, or something that could prove valuable to the Blender community. Despite all the great things they've seen and read about Blender, they'll just assume that Blender is still some half-baked open source application, and not make the effort to find out otherwise.

Depending on who the newbie is, it can be very critical what they think about Blender.

I'm not arguing that Blender should be completely "dumbed down", so newbies can figure out how to use it without reading a manual. I'm just saying that:
  • This is a common and expected feature found on virtually all GUI applications;
  • Not having it raises confusion in new user's minds about the reliability of Blender;
  • It should be fairly cheap to implement;
  • Experienced users will never see it (because they always save their work before closing ;))
I'm not convinced there's a compelling reason for not including it.

GusM
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 2:16 pm

Post by GusM » Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:34 pm

In fact, I am going to use Blender to teach 3D to Fine Arts students here, in Valencia (Spain). I have used Blender just for less than a year now, but I like it enough as it is right now to recomend it and teach it to my students.

But I must say that this kind of "little details" will not help them - neither me - to get a good first inmersion in a so complicated world as 3D is by itself. They have just learned some common uses in near every graphic aplication available nowdays, even in the diferent OS GUIs, and now I must conbince them that Blender´s different ways for doing comon taskes are there because they work better. I can for the mayor part, because Blender is very well designed. But that is not the case with the (here so strongly defensed) "not ask to save if it is not saved", or with the long old battle about undo...

Blender needs to improve still a lot of aspects and there are other much more important things for the core of the aplication, I know it and of course I agree. But as far as even the colour of the buttons are being updated, there is no real reason for not acepting this other little user sugestions, of course if they are not too difficult to implement and if it is done in a way allowing old users to still work as they like.

Let me tell you that the old lack of an Undo feature was one of the reasons for which I didn´t use Blender before. I just couldn´t explain my students that it is not usefull. The lack of a feature so usefull and expected from the average user point of view as the "Save document?" simple question (and not only when you quit without saving last changes, but also when you try to render in top of a file with the same name, etc.), is perceibed usually as a probe for Blender not being a full featured program. Not even a finished one... sad, but true.

My 2 cents: I vote for including it. Please... ;)

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