Edge length in bf-blender

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

Zsolt
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:39 pm

Post by Zsolt » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:54 pm

joeri wrote: Nope, you don't get my point.
Asking for features makes only sense if someone wants to implement them.
I thought the description of this forum was:
"The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc"
joeri wrote: If you are handing out tasks then most likely nobody is going to do it. Unless somebody did it already for himself and might want to share, that's a different case. That's my opinion, but it's based on 8 years following blender development.
Yes, I know you have been around for long, I guess I can only say 5 years for myself, as a user, not a developer.
Why develop, if not for the users? Is programming an end in itself? If noone wants to do it, fine. Its just better to let the developers know what some users would like.
Yeah, blah-blah... I guess thinking like that is my fault... I'm doing industrial design, one of the main points of which is *user-involvement* using focus groups, GOMS analysis, and whatnot, which are all methods to find out what a user needs. Without the user, there is no product. Well, never mind...

"Handing out tasks" is a bit harsh, Greybeard suggested something that would be useful, not a completely new tool, and I agreed (I happened to post exactly the same idea in another thread a few days ago, and someone pointed to this thread).
joeri wrote: No. If it does, it's bad practice. Hacking in small details without thinking about the big picture is going to break up the code. Just look how marvolus firefox is; pretty much build from ground up, not a basic thing with lots of added silly little requests.
Yeah, I use Firefox all the time! :) However, Blender itself seems like it doesn't have, or at least didn't have a big picture in the last 2-3 years.
joeri wrote: Well you don't, so how can you argue on this topic anyway?
Why would I do it for you? Only to hear someone ask to get it out again or todo something else, in the meantime I have become your employee.
I argued based on this:
ideasman wrote:since it only requires chenging a few && ..to ||'s I think sombody should go ahead and do it.
joeri wrote: So how about a mesure tool?
You can select an object and/or edge and/or vertex and/or face and put it in 'draw value' mode. Select two objects and it will draw the distance between them, select an object and vertex and it will draw the distance in between them, select 3 verteces and it will draw the distance inbetween them.
See what I mean, I turned the little feature request into a tool, alot more people can use it, in alot more cases. But, probably with the same amount of work for the developer. Not only making it nicer to make, but a better tool to have.
Agreed.


Zsolt

kxs
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:31 pm
Location: Poland

Post by kxs » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:59 pm

Hey, I`ve got an idea about simply implementing a measure tool in Blender. I think that info about any two vertices would do the trick. In edit mode, when two vertices are selected there could appear an info in the Transform Properties window. And then there`s not even need of a new shortcut key while the TP window has one: N key.
I think that that is good idea. We could then get the info about distance between any 2 vertices, not just about 2 on the same edge. And beside, I think it would be quite easy to write needed code.
So, how about new info in the Transform Properties? And the name? vertex to vertex distance? or maybe v-v dist? How about that? :D

kxs
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:31 pm
Location: Poland

Post by kxs » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:04 am

blender could draw the distance (just like joeri wrote). just simply when TP window is active.

no matter how you solve it, measure tool is what blender lacks of

p.s. sorry for my english :wink:

joeri
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:41 pm
Contact:

Post by joeri » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:05 pm

Zsolt wrote:
joeri wrote: Nope, you don't get my point.
Asking for features makes only sense if someone wants to implement them.
I thought the description of this forum was:
"The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc"
joeri wrote: If you are handing out tasks then most likely nobody is going to do it. Unless somebody did it already for himself and might want to share, that's a different case. That's my opinion, but it's based on 8 years following blender development.
Yes, I know you have been around for long, I guess I can only say 5 years for myself, as a user, not a developer.
Why develop, if not for the users? Is programming an end in itself? If noone wants to do it, fine. Its just better to let the developers know what some users would like.
Yeah, blah-blah... I guess thinking like that is my fault... I'm doing industrial design, one of the main points of which is *user-involvement* using focus groups, GOMS analysis, and whatnot, which are all methods to find out what a user needs. Without the user, there is no product. Well, never mind...

"Handing out tasks" is a bit harsh, Greybeard suggested something that would be useful, not a completely new tool, and I agreed (I happened to post exactly the same idea in another thread a few days ago, and someone pointed to this thread).
joeri wrote: No. If it does, it's bad practice. Hacking in small details without thinking about the big picture is going to break up the code. Just look how marvolus firefox is; pretty much build from ground up, not a basic thing with lots of added silly little requests.
Yeah, I use Firefox all the time! :) However, Blender itself seems like it doesn't have, or at least didn't have a big picture in the last 2-3 years.
joeri wrote: Well you don't, so how can you argue on this topic anyway?
Why would I do it for you? Only to hear someone ask to get it out again or todo something else, in the meantime I have become your employee.
I argued based on this:
ideasman wrote:since it only requires chenging a few && ..to ||'s I think sombody should go ahead and do it.
joeri wrote: So how about a mesure tool?
You can select an object and/or edge and/or vertex and/or face and put it in 'draw value' mode. Select two objects and it will draw the distance between them, select an object and vertex and it will draw the distance in between them, select 3 verteces and it will draw the distance inbetween them.
See what I mean, I turned the little feature request into a tool, alot more people can use it, in alot more cases. But, probably with the same amount of work for the developer. Not only making it nicer to make, but a better tool to have.
Agreed.
Zsolt
I hope you are wearing your shoes with the steel nose.

All I'm saying that you have a better change to get what you want implemented if the request sounds like a plan that fits in blender, and you'll get more credit from me if it's a tool and not just a little detail that you should be able to implement yourself.

If it does not have some construction I think those 'requests' are better put in http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34696

'cause frankly; If you can't implement it yourself then I wonder what you are doing on this forum... "Telling developers what users want" is the most weird thing I've heard on this forum. Who says 'the developers' want to hear from users what they want? Do you really think they can't come up with something like displaying the distance between two verteces? Or is it more important now because 3 people know this site and post a request?

...Greybeard suggested something that would be useful, not a completely new tool...
So you agree it's not a feature request, but a tweek.

...Without the user, there is no product. ...
O dear, all the products in the world are made to user requests?
What about invention; making money; changing the world; educating people into doing something they didn't know would be possible?

But that's part of my point: Blender developers don't work for the users.
If they don't get satisfaction from the work, they are not going to do it.
Ofcourse it could be possible that someone will do it because they like you or greybeard, or that they have already done it and will share.
But in my point of view it's smarter to appeal to the sense that it will improve blender, 'cause that's something everybody wants. And this appeal is best made with a good constructive plan, not with a personal opinion remark. "Blender will improve with z to y " is not going to work for a developer, they will be thinking about how a hack like that will be destructive to the code. So you, should think about the developer as your client/customer; how are you going to present your request to them? If you are not interested that this developer has (customer) needs as well then you are not going to 'sell' your idea.

'cause,... this *is* a developers forum.
I know the forum reads "The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc". So what? You do a feature request, and if I find it a poor one I'll say so. I'll even give hints on how to improve the request. (O wait, you are a designer, so the request must be perfect to begin with).
What do you want ? Do you need the forum names changed to
"The interface from a developers perspective, modeling from a developers perspective, 3d editing tools from a developers perspective, import/export from a developers perspective, feature requests from a developers perspective, etc from a developers perspective" ?

This post has become to long for a 3 vertex distance display request, but I hope my blah-blah as you call it will help some people to get their ideas implemented in blender.

lightning
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 9:06 pm

Post by lightning » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:25 pm

joeri wrote:in the meantime I have become your employee.
joeri wrote:Who says 'the developers' want to hear from users what they want?
joeri wrote:O wait, you are a designer, so the request must be perfect to begin with
No offense, but I think you're kinda loosing the plot
joeri wrote:If you can't implement it yourself then I wonder what you are doing on this forum
Get a grip. Blender is about freedom, that's why it's opensource.
joeri wrote:So you agree it's not a feature request, but a tweek.
An inch is as good as a mile- you aren't objecting to this on the grounds that it would make blender worse. In fact, everyone who has posted is united in thinking that this would make blender better. You're just trying to make the point that you don't just do what people tell you to. Fine. That doesn't make this 'tweek' a bad idea.
joeri wrote:how a hack like that will be destructive to the code.
For one, I hope that nothing you ever code is implimented into bf-blender. If you think that
ideasman wrote:chenging a few && ..to ||'s
, in fact changing it back to how it was originally, is going to destroy the code, then I suggest you go back to school before you come and try to talk to a forum of programmers.
The dawn of a new error...

ideasman
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:37 pm

Post by ideasman » Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:46 am

Man, this is really out of control!!

1) If you want to go ahead and make some great measure tool, go ahead. nobodys stopping you, mabe some day it can be muilt into the mesh measure stuff.

2) I added edge measure a fair while ago because I needed it. Im more of a user then a coder, but as you can all gather, just asking for seatures dosent do much, and I knew a little OpenGL.

3) It was really hard to get this added in, obviously because I was/still am- a beginner at C/OpenGL stuff, and the BF-Blender group dont like shonky code.
Ton asked for some changes, tweaks, so I did them.
- Making the text use the text colour (In the theme view, with tinting)
- Using bitmap text draw (Rather then freetype AA Text)
- Only drawing teach draw for totally selected elements.

As it turns out the last change may have been the result of Ton not wanting things to be cluttered.
But he probably didnt see that removing drawing for partly selected edges
removes much of the usefullness gained by teach draw when it was added initially.

For non coders this may seem like a feature request, but realy its a very minor functionality tweak.
Im not joaking, there are 7x &&'s than need to be changed to ||'s
4 for quads and 3 for tri's- from memory.
So dont anyone get on the "How dare you make a feature request" wagon.

- If anyone wants, Ill write a patch for bf-Blender to change the functionality.
- Cam/Ideasman.

-efbie-
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:47 pm

Post by -efbie- » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:00 am

I personally think that the current implementation is disapointing.I would find it more useful if it was displaying the conected edge length.

Zsolt
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:39 pm

Post by Zsolt » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:01 pm

umm... joeri: the "bla-bla" was a little self irony, talking about myself...

I didn't start this thread, actually I haven't started any threads on feature requests, search my name, I usually post bugs and various ideas in the testing builds forum. If I do have any "request", then yes, I'd structure it more, and rather present it as a proposal. I don't see why it has to be perfect though. Why, do you write perfect code perhaps?

btw: A product by definition is something (object, service, etc.) that fulfills a person's needs. Note that "request" != "need", however user requests can give an idea of the users needs.

joeri
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:41 pm
Contact:

Post by joeri » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:57 am

Zsolt wrote:umm... joeri: the "bla-bla" was a little self irony, talking about myself...
Well then it's me with the big feet.
Zsolt wrote:If I do have any "request", then yes, I'd structure it more, and rather present it as a proposal.
So we agree again.
Zsolt wrote:Why, do you write perfect code perhaps?
To your definition of product yes, since I don't agree with the definition: no. The image select worked fine for years, but when blender got ported to windows it became buggy. Then again the idea is still great, having thumbnails to display image files, I think more software does it nowadays.
Zsolt wrote: btw: A product by definition is something (object, service, etc.) that fulfills a person's needs.
This would mean that there are no product flops. There are enough products that nobody wants or needs, they still are products.
ideasman wrote: 2) I added edge measure a fair while ago because I needed it. Im more of a user then a coder, but as you can all gather, just asking for seatures dosent do much, and I knew a little OpenGL.
Good for you and the way to go, I'm discussing people who ask you to do something for them. And how they can improve their request. Pretty silly that it's okay to comment on blender developers and how they implement features but it's not okay to comment on how the request is/are done.
ideasman wrote: So dont anyone get on the "How dare you make a feature request" wagon.
Haha, I dare anything. But I'm the guy keeping track of the found feature request list on blender.org and have to decide if I'll add this one or not. Meanwhile I'm commenting on the quality of this request. And the quality of this request is not very good.

Just take a look at this one "Default view is confusing to new users (Feature Request)" and notice how those are been taken much more seriously.
lightning wrote:Get a grip. Blender is about freedom, that's why it's opensource.
Bullshit. This is a developers forum. Stick to the developers rules.
lightning wrote:An inch is as good as a mile-
Not true, taking things inch by inch is only a good solution if you know which way to go.
Otherwise you'll find out at inch 8 (inch? yuk!) that you'd better had done inch 4 differently. And no, I did not learn that at school.
lightning wrote:For one, I hope that nothing you ever code is implimented into bf-blender. If you think that
Is this still under the 'no offense' license? I think it's best if you move on to another 3d package then, not only did I write parts of blender 1.0, I'm one of Ton's 2 partners who told him it was okay to go public with blender. Without that okay, there would not have been a free blender and certainly not an opensource blender.
lightning wrote: in fact changing it back to how it was originally, is going to destroy the code, then I suggest you go back to school before you come and try to talk to a forum of programmers.
I get the idea you have no clue what you are talking about.
lightning wrote: current implementation is disapointing
But,... some suggest that you would be perfectly happy if 2 more figures are added. Now why don't I believe that?

M@dcow
Posts: 0
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 12:50 pm

Post by M@dcow » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:02 am

Please calm down joeri, sometimes you are like a bull in a china shop :wink:

phase
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:59 pm

Post by phase » Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:21 pm

Hey Joeri !

FYI, there's nothing wrong with the imagebrowser. Bugs are caused
by other code concerning imagetype detection and file handling.
I wish someone had a look at it, i always use the imagebrowser !

Rob
...oh, this thread is about edge lengths. 8)

joeri
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:41 pm
Contact:

Post by joeri » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:45 pm

M@dcow wrote:Please calm down joeri, sometimes you are like a bull in a china shop :wink:
I'm sorry madcow, you got it wrong,
I'm *always* like a bull in a china shop.
See there are two parts on that:
part1: Bull
part2: China shop
Now if some in here could stop acting like a china shop then all problems are solved.
phase wrote: I wish someone had a look at it, i always use the imagebrowser !
I had dinner with Ton last night and discussed this with him. I could take a look at it. Using extensions on windows machines mite solve the magic-number problem.

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