Suggestion for transform widget debate

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gendou
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Location: Indianapolis, IN

Post by gendou » Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:41 pm

I just checked the scale functionality in the latest bf blender 04/04 release and moving the mouse down does not scale smaller, only moving the mouse toward the center scales smaller. Perhaps making the scaling function scale smaller when moving the mouse down and larger when moving it up? Toward the center worked before when you could start scaling anywhere on the screen but doesn't work when you're already clicking on the center to start the scaling movement. I think forced mouse directions on scaling are the only way to solve this problem.

William's right, this whole thing has gotten very messy. Everyone's excited about the widgets but finding the best way to implement them creates difficult decisions. Hopefully, the devs will come up with the best way or maybe someone will post a good idea of how to do it.

fonz2591
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Post by fonz2591 » Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:04 am

Perhaps making the scaling function scale smaller when moving the mouse down and larger when moving it up?
I agree

gendou
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Post by gendou » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:26 am

I have spent a couple of hours tonight thinking about this and here's what I've come up with so let me know how it sounds.

First, to take care of the Mv, Rot, Scl mode toggle, try this:

Switch View All Layers from Tilde (~) to only Shift+Tilde (~) toggle. Currently, you can press ~ or Shift + ~ and get the same result. Eliminate ~ for View All Layers and make Shift + ~ the toggle. Change ~ to Transform Mode toggle.

For the planar constraints and transform orientation, how does this sound:

While looking for good hotkeys for the constraints I found an area I think could use a change, the Layer Visibility hotkeys, Shift + 1 - 0 (main number keys on keyboard, not NumPad).
Right now, Shift + 2 through 0 will toggle layers on an off. You cannot toggle Layer 1 with Shift + 1, only layers 2 - 10. To select layers 11 - 20, you can press Alt + 1 - 0. To toggle visibility on these layers, you have to press Ctrl+Shift+Alt+1 - 0. Four keys? It requires two hands just to toggle a layer you could have clicked or Shift+LMB clicked (multiple layers) which also requires two hands but is faster. I suggest taking the layer visibility keys and changing them to :
1-0 : Toggle Visibility for Layers 1-10
Alt+1-0 : Toggle Visibility for Layers 11-20

Now, for the constraints I thought of the following:

Create popup menus that hold the transform orientation modes (local/ global / normal / view / face / edge / etc.) and another that holds the planar constraints (XZ / XY / ZY) and assign hotkeys to them also so you can open them under your mouse like the Point / Edge / Face menu. With the change mentioned above, I thought of the system below for hotkey assignment:

Take the Shift key and bind Shift+1 to Transform Orientation Menu and Shift+2 to Planar Constraint Menu. Like the Point / Edge / Face menu, once open, you can press 1, 2, or 3 to select a mode. Likewise, these two menus would also respond to 1-0 for quick menu selection. It allows you to keep one hand on the keyboard and one one the mouse for both Layer Visibility, Transform Orientation, and Planar Constraints.

So, in a nutshell, here's the list of new hotkeys:

Tilde : Toggle Transform
Shift+Tilde (~) : View All Layers / View Selected Layers
1 - 0 : Toggle Visibility for Layers 1 - 10
Alt+ 1 - 0 : Toggle Visibility for Layers 11 - 20
Shift + 1 : Transform Orientation Menu (1 and up for menu selection)
Shift + 2 : Planar Constraint Menu (1 and up for menu selection)

I'm not saying this is the best solution, but I'd be interested to see what other blender users and the devs think of these proposed changes.

-efbie-
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Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:47 pm

Post by -efbie- » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:19 am

gendou wrote: So, in a nutshell, here's the list of new hotkeys:

Tilde : Toggle Transform
Shift+Tilde (~) : View All Layers / View Selected Layers
1 - 0 : Toggle Visibility for Layers 1 - 10
Alt+ 1 - 0 : Toggle Visibility for Layers 11 - 20
Shift + 1 : Transform Orientation Menu (1 and up for menu selection)
Shift + 2 : Planar Constraint Menu (1 and up for menu selection)
tilde is unavailable on azerty keyboards (it is above right ctrl, and you must use alt gr to have access to it) It'll make the widget unusable for every french people on the planet.... :?

why not simply mmb click ? it is unused right now, and it is already used for changing "mode" when you split windows

yeonil
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Location: Krakow, Poland

Post by yeonil » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:31 am

I, for instance, am still using mouse without mmb :|
So You propose the mmb/alt+lmb as usual? isn't it occupied by view rotation?

Yeonil

-efbie-
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Post by -efbie- » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:47 pm

there is a differenece between alt-lmb clic (does nothing) and alt lmb grab(rotates view)
it's the same difference as the lmb gesture and the set cursor.

MNME
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Location: England

Post by MNME » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:42 am

personally, i dont care what does what with the widget.. coz.. it seems to me to be yet another stupid 'noob friendly' compromise cluttering up what is already a perfectly good interface, and im never going to use it anyway... provided it doesnt mess with my current workin modes ill just shut up and ignore it... pressing a whole 3 keys to get a local transform certainly isnt going to kill me... expecially when 2 of them are the same...

but, that said.. what comes to my mind is

2 copies of the widget handle/s one half the size which does local transforms, and the full size one doing global (or the other way around.. i could care less)

single widget handle per axis, RMB to grab, LMB to rot, MMB (or RMB+LMB) to scale on that axis, same on the center blob (or some other similar ordering of buttons)

joeri
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Post by joeri » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:20 am

MNME wrote:personally, i dont care what does what with the widget.. coz.. it seems to me to be yet another stupid 'noob friendly' compromise cluttering up what is already a perfectly good interface, and im never going to use it anyway... provided it doesnt mess with my current workin modes ill just shut up and ignore it... pressing a whole 3 keys to get a local transform certainly isnt going to kill me... expecially when 2 of them are the same...
Widget are not only for new users.
It gives fast (and visual) access to single axis transformations.
It (could) also give(s) feedback on transformation mode; local/global. And give the feedback there where you are looking, not in some corner somewhere.
But I agree to some point: I never missed the widgets, so they can be considerd to be alot of work for not much extra functionality. I always saw the model as it's own widget. Grabbing the object to transform feels more natural (real life) to me then the appearance of some sliders (3d or not) to 'control' the transform. Specialy the way the widgets are implemented now; There is no relation between the cursor and the widget or the object. Try rotating an object in 3d view and you will notice it uses a perfect circle as rotation input. There is no (visual) relation between what you do and what you get. But I guess that's another discussion.

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