Widgets: more logical hotkeys

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bmud
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Widgets: more logical hotkeys

Post by bmud »

okay, the current hotkeys are as such:

show/hide translate: ctrl+alt+G
show/hide rotate: ctrl+alt+R
show/hide scale: ctrl+alt+S

okay, and then there's the golden rule
"Keep one hand on your keyboard and one on your mouse."

I can't stand doing CTRL+ALT+button commands with one hand. It's a strange hand position.

So here's what I came up with

show/hide translate: G G
show/hide rotate: R R
show/hide scale: S S

Since each transform puts you into the "in-limbo-mode" as I call it, pressing the same button again usually doesn't do anything. How about.. showing the widget! Woo.

alt+space sounded okay for the orientation options to me, by the way. That's all. Thanks.
Last edited by bmud on Mon May 02, 2005 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

joeri
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Post by joeri »

I have no trouble with ctrl-alt-G
I put my pinky on the ctrl, thumb on the alt anf can reach untill T-G & B with my index. I can even press shift with my ring finger, no swet.

Maybe it's because I had some piano lessons?

SamAdam
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Post by SamAdam »

joeri wrote:I have no trouble with ctrl-alt-G
I put my pinky on the ctrl, thumb on the alt anf can reach untill T-G & B with my index. I can even press shift with my ring finger, no swet.

Maybe it's because I had some piano lessons?
i like the above idea, but i can do it just fine.

homebody
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Post by homebody »

While I can do ctrl+shift stuff with one hand too, I think it's a lot easier to do something like G G or RR. I think it's a lot easier to have some 2-key commands then the super-combinatory-keys. It won't be difficult to implement though, we only need to come up with a well designed hot key set.

However I don't see you blendermonkeys move to the new scheme while you are so comfortable with the old one. Maybe we can leave that as an option, but programmers have to choose 2 hotkeys for each set...

theeth
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Post by theeth »

R R is already used for free rotate (trackball rotate).

Martin
Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans.
- John Lennon

bmud
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Post by bmud »

theeth wrote:R R is already used for free rotate (trackball rotate).
Daaaaannnng. I would say use TKEY (transform) universally, but doesn't that twist beziere curves? And then there's W for "Widget", and W is already a super duper key. (why is that?)

By the way, I can reach my fingers just as far as you can joeri. I also have very long fingers, and play some keyboard once in a while. Hats off.

Well shoot. Let's rethink about the language involved (Blender's hotkeys like to do that I've noticed.)

So if we've got R, G, and S. There's...
> "Alternate Scale" with Alt+SKey which is called.. "grow"?
> "Constrained Scale" with Middle Click
> "Alternate Rotate" with R and a middle-mouse click. ie "Trackball Rotate."
> There's no alternate grab, but we have the X, Y, and Z constraints to help with that.

Holding "Control" snaps to the grid while you're in limbo.
Holding "Shift" moves you at a tenth the distance (if I'm right).
Holding "Alternate" while in limbo currently doesn't do anything, so pressing it would be okay.

So what in the world could be done.. This almost feels a little cluttered...
Wait a freakin minute. My bf-Blender 2.36 does not go to trackball mode when you press R R. It doesn't do anything. Nothing. Nil. So let's utilize that instead, and clear up some things. Even if you're using that in Tohopuu now, you havn't had that much time to get stuck to it. How about this?

Code: Select all

Move	G
	[G - show widget]
	[Alt - move along normal (in the future?) ]
	[Middle Mouse - contrain]

Rotate	R
	[R - show widget]
*	[Alt - Turntable mode]
*	[Middle Mouse - constrain]

Scale	S
	[S - show widget]
	[Alt - Grow mode]
	[Middle Mouse - constrain]

{Alt+Space shows menu for the above}

while in limbo:
[CTRL] universally snap
[SHIFT] universally slow
[ALT] universally toggle modes
[SAME COMMAND] show respecting widget
[X/Y/Z] constrain to respected axes
[X/Y/Z] again shows the coordinate pointer thing
*These two I have switched to what they are right now. I presently have no problem with the way it works right now (which is systematically backwards from the other two transforms), in fact I like the current system.

That should solve everything we've brought up. But let me know what you guys think again. I might be wrong or missing something.

bmud
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Post by bmud »

theeth wrote:R R is already used for free rotate (trackball rotate).
Daaaaannnng. I would say use TKEY (transform) universally, but doesn't that twist beziere curves? And then there's W for "Widget", and W is already a super duper key. (why is that?)

By the way, I can reach my fingers just as far as you can joeri. I also have very long fingers, and play some keyboard once in a while. Hats off.

Well shoot. Let's rethink about the language involved (Blender's hotkeys like to do that I've noticed.)

So if we've got R, G, and S. There's...
> "Alternate Scale" with Alt+SKey which is called.. "grow"?
> "Constrained Scale" with Middle Click
> "Alternate Rotate" with R and a middle-mouse click. ie "Trackball Rotate."
> There's no alternate grab, but we have the X, Y, and Z constraints to help with that.

Holding "Control" snaps to the grid while you're in limbo.
Holding "Shift" moves you at a tenth the distance (if I'm right).
Holding "Alternate" while in limbo currently doesn't do anything, so pressing it would be okay.

So what in the world could be done.. This almost feels a little cluttered...
Wait a freakin minute. My bf-Blender 2.36 does not go to trackball mode when you press R R. It doesn't do anything. Nothing. Nil.

Code: Select all

Move	G
	[G - show widget]
	[Alt - move along normal (in the future?) ]
	[Middle Mouse - contrain]

Rotate	R
	[R - show widget]
*	[Alt - Turntable mode]
*	[Middle Mouse - constrain]

Scale	S
	[S - show widget]
	[Alt - Grow mode]
	[Middle Mouse - constrain]

{Alt+Space shows menu for the above}

while in limbo:
[CTRL] universally snap
[SHIFT] universally slow
[ALT] universally toggle modes
[SAME COMMAND] show respecting widget
[X/Y/Z] constrain to respected axes
[X/Y/Z] again shows the coordinate pointer thing
*These two swapped from what they are right now. I presently have no problem with the way it works right now (which is systematically backwards from the other two transforms), in fact I like the current system. The right brain would be angry if we changed it, but the left brain would be happy. I can't make that decision. It seems we like to have the middle click on hand to do whatever we do 'more' often than the other, but that's not necessarily true.

That should solve everything we've brought up. But let me know what you guys think again. I might be wrong or missing something.

[edit] I did just now try out the latest build of 2.37, and i'm getting used to it quickly. I would still like to see SKey SKey utilize grow. Above all, I'm looking for a more logical universal system to get used to (eventually) so A: newcomers can learn faster, and B: fewer violations of our brain's natural expectations, ie less exceptions to rules. Happy blending![/edit]

Money_YaY!
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Post by Money_YaY! »

i would say make a customizable keyboard menu like everyone has begged for forever now, hey look silo can do it ! :D
http://www.nevercenter.com/silo/customization/
http://www.nevercenter.com/other_downlo ... zation.mov

Now dont bad mouth before you try it kay, you should always try out other software for more than a week before you go and debunk it.

But really what is the big deal of not giving users control of the VERY VERY messed up disorganised keyboard shortcuts in blender ? At first they were good but there are so many now it is just jacked. Add that to having to remember other programs shortcuts and mix that with other 3d programs own way of working :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: egh crap to much *what the hell was that key again !*

Anyways I am just spiting out the same old complaint others have said before.

DYeater
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Location: Enon, Ohio USA

Post by DYeater »

Doing like you suggest would make it pure hell for tutorial developers ... "Now press the ... the ... well, the key that you have assigned to the Grab translational hotkey."

Money_YaY!
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:47 pm

Post by Money_YaY! »

DYeater wrote:Doing like you suggest would make it pure hell for tutorial developers ... "Now press the ... the ... well, the key that you have assigned to the Grab translational hotkey."
?? So you sugest keeping it in this shape ? Just make a button for all features and list them inside of a window like "forgotten or advanced buttons" Relying on hotkeys as the only access for features is just wrong... It screws everything up when it comes time again 'to remember what the hell was the key combo again'

joeri
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Post by joeri »

DYeater wrote:Doing like you suggest would make it pure hell for tutorial developers ... "Now press the ... the ... well, the key that you have assigned to the Grab translational hotkey."
Well there are different interests:
-New users. Those have no need to re-assign keys, so they can be adressed with "Press the default G-Key"
-Multi program users. It could be helpfull for me if blender had the same keys as Maya. I'm the only blender user here so I'd rather change the blender keys then the Maya ones.
-And the know-it-alls. Changing Hotkeys wouldn't help for them, 'cause they want different behaivior or action order.

But you are right that people who changed their hotkeys will be the lousiest tutors ever. So I'd give it a priority -1 on a scale from 1 to 10.

Hotkeys have been a blender problem for some time now. W-KEY is a result from that. ("Put it in W 'cause all the keys are used"). And a good rethink is a good idea. But then I mean a *good* rethink, not some 'bright' post on a forum. Take a good look at all different workflows (not just the one you use) and come up with good toolsets for everyone is not something you come up with in an afternoon. Nor solved by passing the problem to the user by letting him decide on the key assignment.
An added problem is the ever growing features that are implemented; a good plan has some ideas about those to.

LetterRip
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Post by LetterRip »

As mentioned on the bf-committers list - event system refactor is something that the core coders feel is needed.

The refactor is planned to allow 1) custom keybindings and mousebindings 2) more input device support (spaceball, pen tablet) 3) customizable button, menu and header bindings and layouts.

At least part of the refactor is planned for the next release cycle.

Regarding the manuals - as Joeri noted they can be written to blenders defaults, or alternatively instead of hardcoding CTRL RMB, etc. do <Select> Object. Change to <Edit Mode>.

Then have the bindings dynamically substituted based on your keybinding layout. Which would be useful/important anyway since Blenders default layout can undergo changes and this would allow the manual to be autoupdated.

LetterRip

cekuhnen
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Post by cekuhnen »

after checking the latest cvs i must say the current 3d widges are terrible because they occupy to much screen space. special rotation!


the version with the cylinders was a lot more elegant.


with the combo this way you have all three tools in one alway accessible without the need to press g r or s.


to bad they changed it.

DYeater
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Post by DYeater »

You might be interested to know that, for now at least, there is a slider called r that is located in the render buttons. There are about 4 or 5 values that can be changed that will change the appearance of the translation widgits. I use r=2 as I like the little cylinder handles on the rotation widgits. It's easier for me to judge the direction of the rotation with these than with the "globe" types.

Just wanted you to know that, for now, you still have options. :D

joeri
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Post by joeri »

I had a talk with Ton about the widgets over dinner, and he claimed the blender ones are far better then the maya ones.
"You can't select other objects that are behind the widget" he said.
This bugged me for a long time, now I know why. You can't select other objects behind the widget in maya because the rotation widget is a trackball. click and hold anywhere on the ball to have a free rotation on the object. In maya selection is stay-on-the-object based. You didn't select it for nothing. Selecting something else is only default when the pointer is away from the selected object (same thing in modo).
The ax constraint only works when clicking on an ax. Anyway...

Hotkey bindings are not going to 'solve' implementations like this. And these kind of things make workflow, not if it's activated by a W-key or an R-key.

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