I'm tired of "BKEY" ! :-)

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malefico
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I'm tired of "BKEY" ! :-)

Post by malefico » Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:11 pm

OK, I've been pressing "BKEY" for border select for... what ? five...SIX !!! years now and I'm quite tired of it. Even when this BKEY thing is almost a brand of Blender, I think people should consider seriously to include a LMB+DRAG behaviour to select areas.

I mean, we already have the CTRL+LMB thing for lasso select... it wouldn't hurt too much adding this ... right ? :roll:

It would make selection workflow more standard IMHO. And easier for newcomers (who cares, I'mnot ! :D )

And after all, we already agreed switching U to CTRL+Z !!! :D

Regards

malefico (I'm a long run user who wouldn't mind forgetting the "B" habit for once!).

wavk
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Post by wavk » Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:20 pm

Hehe that's funny ;) Now you mention it... Hm... the only thing is that the gestures are bound to LMB+DRAG. I found gestures sooo cool when first using Blender. But I can say now I only use them when I'm veeeeeeery lazy and drinking a cup of coffee with my left hand, and even than it's just to dangle around with the object. And then there's this script that uses gestures, don't know what it's called but it's quite cool.

So these are your contenders.

Personally, the b key has become so instinctive I didn't even know I pressed it so many times anymore. But you can say safely that LMB+DRAG is quite standard among apps.

Wow, you can safely say that I'm not taking any side, but it's an interesting topic ;)

malefico
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Post by malefico » Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:49 pm

Oh darn ! you're right... the gestures stuff... that's something I used once... when ? oh my ! When I was trying to select a bunch of cubes back in 1999 ! :D

I realize there are many people which are used to gesture, but I think (maybe wrong) is not the main stream of users (certainly not the new comers... hey you guys help me out here ! it's for YOUR benefit ! :D )... perhaps it would be more useful to switch gestures to another combo or use middle button to select areas instead of left button as I propose here...

There is also the Hotspots thing from Mariano I think, which would probably make it for me too (just click on the select icon and you're done)... the thing is that after working several hours with Gimp, Inkscape or other apps, I still make the mistake of LMB+DRAG when I want to select a group of objects (man, am I an idiot or what !? )

Anyway, whatever side you take I'll follow :wink:

Regards

malefico.

PS: BTW, I love the old UKEY thing :lol:

Koba
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Post by Koba » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:22 pm

Couldn't the two be compatible?

Why not have gesture behaviour if the gesture is performed in empty space where nothing would be selected anyway (if something is already selected to apply the gesture to) and selection behaviour if when you let go of the mouse you might have been trying to select something (if nothing was selected initially). If you are holding Shift or whatever it is to add more to your selection, it could be selection behaviour only.

Am I making myself clear? I think the two can live side by side if context sensitive behaviour is used.

How not simply make it an option? A gesture or selection behaviour toggle.

I personally use gestures but also find the B-key annoying so I think it would be best to find an improvement for both.

Koba

malefico
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Post by malefico » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:05 pm

I think yours is a good idea, making it an option. So people who needs gesture behaviour (I was told in another forum that it is indeed needed for pencil tablets or something) still have it, and people who never use it (like me an other troglodits) still find LMB usable for something.

Of course I'm not saying anything about completely erradicate BKEY, we still need it for switching Area/Circle/whatever selection modes.

Regards

malefico.

harkyman
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Post by harkyman » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:25 pm

This is where Blender needs some actual UI research. They need to observe 100's of folks using the software, from noobs to pros, and have them fill out usage and demographic surveys afterward. If it turns out that only 1% of users consistently use mouse gestures and even seasoned pros mistakenly try to LMB-drag to border select once per day, then it might suggest a course of action.

Unfortunately, that sort of thing is beyond the scope of Blender and its developers right now.

ZanQdo
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Post by ZanQdo » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:17 am

Also dragging from left to rigth could select only the faces/edges that are totally inside the square selection and draging from rigth to left all the faces/edges that are touched by the selection like other programas do :D
:-) Hosting for your test builds:
GraphicAll.org

Caronte
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Post by Caronte » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:26 am

I agree with malefico about the click&drag behavior for box selection :wink:
Caronte.
"Some Day, All Will Be Digital"
http://www.nicodigital.com

LetterRip
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Post by LetterRip » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:40 am

harkyman,
This is where Blender needs some actual UI research. They need to observe 100's of folks using the software, from noobs to pros, and have them fill out usage and demographic surveys afterward. If it turns out that only 1% of users consistently use mouse gestures and even seasoned pros mistakenly try to LMB-drag to border select once per day, then it might suggest a course of action.

Unfortunately, that sort of thing is beyond the scope of Blender and its developers right now.
We basically have one developer who is very attached to Blenders current gesture system, and also is not too fond of having things user configurable. He also happens to lead the entire project so his opinion is a bit more equal than others.

LetterRip

harkyman
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Post by harkyman » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:21 pm

Right. And if someone wanted to, I'm guessing this would be a simple bit of coding swapping to change. There's no reason in the world that someone who felt strongly about this couldn't set up a swap code/build system to do nightly cvs builds with this change, and also make shadows of the official releases. That way everyone could decide for themselves the way they wanted to work.

malefico
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Post by malefico » Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:38 pm

LetterRip:
We basically have one developer who is very attached to Blenders current gesture system, and also is not too fond of having things user configurable. He also happens to lead the entire project so his opinion is a bit more equal than others.
I suppose you're talking about Big Brother "T"... I would gladly accept having "gesture system ON" by default so he wouldn't be too upset about it :wink: (then I will happily turn it OFF, but hey, that's just me :) )

Harkyman:
There's no reason in the world that someone who felt strongly about this couldn't set up a swap code/build system to do nightly cvs builds with this change, and also make shadows of the official releases
Wise words...

Anyway, I am, if not the first, probably the third guy in the line realizing that there are lots of more important things to do than changing this, but since there are a number of coders around who might like to shake things a little with minimum effort... who knows... I would love to see how people react to such a change in LMB behaviour :twisted: .

Regards

malefico.

teachtech
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Post by teachtech » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:06 pm

I like the way AutoCAD does it.... drag a window from left to right- only objects completely within the window are selected. Drag a window from right to left and any object touched by the box is selected :D

lukep
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Post by lukep » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:59 pm

teachtech wrote:I like the way AutoCAD does it.... drag a window from left to right- only objects completely within the window are selected. Drag a window from right to left and any object touched by the box is selected :D
Hmm. as an ex Autocrade user, i would *hate* to get this selection method in blender.

works in 2D not in 3D

JoOngle
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Post by JoOngle » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:04 pm

He's not the only one using the gesture system, I'm using it too.
The gesture system eliminates the need for pressing icons, short-cut keys and much
more - so if one have a habit of using them...the gestures are actually pretty neat.

I can however see how the gesture system can be a bit odd to those who aren't used
to it...and come from other platforms...heck...I come from another platform myself
but have somehow gotten used to the gestures. I won't cry if they disappear but
someone else besides the big "T" uses them as well. ;)

Caronte
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Post by Caronte » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:59 pm

The native gesture commands was limited to: move, scale and rotate.
I think that they are few commands. Also the rotate command is very similar to the scale command and some times you chose the wrong.
Caronte.
"Some Day, All Will Be Digital"
http://www.nicodigital.com

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