What about a new GUI?

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

Zingam
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:28 am

Post by Zingam »

OK! Here is my simple proposal about layers:

A pull down list that contains:
1. layer name
2. button to switch on/off visibility of a layer
3. button to freeze a layer (disable edit mode)

and maybe:
4. colors for each layer

The first 3 "." should be achievable in 2.4 :)

This would be enough for a start.

What I hate about current layers is:
1. tiny little buttons
2. when I click on a button, a layer is selected and all the rest disselected. The default selection mode should be the one that is enabled by shift+click on a layer button.
3. I don't know which object is on which layer, when just looking at a scene.

Thank you!

PolygoneUK
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:22 pm

Post by PolygoneUK »

Zingam wrote:OK! Here is my simple proposal about layers:

A pull down list that contains:
1. layer name
2. button to switch on/off visibility of a layer
3. button to freeze a layer (disable edit mode)

and maybe:
4. colors for each layer

The first 3 "." should be achievable in 2.4 :)

This would be enough for a start.

What I hate about current layers is:
1. tiny little buttons
2. when I click on a button, a layer is selected and all the rest disselected. The default selection mode should be the one that is enabled by shift+click on a layer button.
3. I don't know which object is on which layer, when just looking at a scene.

Thank you!
Some valid suggestions there I reckon. Layer names would be very useful. I'm not sure about how the developers would code a layer freeze option, could be more tricky.

The tiny buttons can be fiddly and very annoying so I agree that they need a good looking at. Also, the way they are selected is also dodgy.

I'm with you. When you left click a layer button, that's your instruction as a user that you want that layer made visible. Not activated or de-activated, but visible.

As for knowing which objects are on which layer, that's gonna be really hard to do visually. Since there are 20 layers in blender, and any object can exist on one or more or ALL of those 20 layers, I have NO idea how you would show a user which object is on which layer.

But most of what you say, I agree with. :)

Zingam
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:28 am

Post by Zingam »

PolygoneUK wrote:
As for knowing which objects are on which layer, that's gonna be really hard to do visually. Since there are 20 layers in blender, and any object can exist on one or more or ALL of those 20 layers, I have NO idea how you would show a user which object is on which layer.

But most of what you say, I agree with. :)
In AutoCAD each layer has its own color, then all objects on a layer are drawn with that color. I don't know if this would be difficult or even possible to implement or not but it's just a suggestion.

Anyway developers can either totally redsign a feature or gradually improve it.

cekuhnen
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Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:04 pm

Post by cekuhnen »

i do not mind the small buttons, becasue they do not eat up a lot of screen space. i also do not mind the way layer selection is done. if you get used to shift select additional layers it works fine.

however what i would like to see is the mentioned frezze/lock edit button for layer objects plus a layer shading option. it would be nice in case you could set one layer to only show the objects as wire frame for example.

thats all i think you realy need. the rest are cosmetic touches or things that make the work more convenient but not realy more productive.

claas

joeri
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Post by joeri »

Naming layers is very easy in blender.
You open a text editor and type someting like this:
1. Lamps
2. Motion paths
3. Objects for frame 1 till 100
4. Objects for frame 50 till 150
10. Garbage

This way any layer can be given any name up to any number of characters.

Coloring objects to layer presets does not work for objects that are in multiple layers.

O, don't click on the little buttons! (crazy people), use 1 to 9 keys and with shift to append selection.

UncleZeiv
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:11 pm

Post by UncleZeiv »

Zingam wrote:3. button to freeze a layer (disable edit mode)
It's not exactly the same thing, but you could try out the "set" option. This way the content of another scene is added to the current, but it is not editable.

_dave_

PolygoneUK
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:22 pm

Post by PolygoneUK »

joeri wrote:Naming layers is very easy in blender.
You open a text editor and type someting like this:
1. Lamps
2. Motion paths
3. Objects for frame 1 till 100
4. Objects for frame 50 till 150
10. Garbage

This way any layer can be given any name up to any number of characters.
Proof if ever that you should not give advice on using blender's interface :P

Labelling layers or the buttons that represent layers is hardly a major issue now is it? Buttons in blender generally have text that accompanies them either through a tooltip or visual text.

Imagine if the render sequence button were just a little button tucked away with no text.

Blender has 20 layers, they exist before a user does anything to them. Therefore a user should be able to assign a label to those layers and visualy select which they want.

I think this step should be taken especially if Blender ever gets to the stage of being able to do independent render passes, as layer management could be very useful and productive.
joeri wrote: Coloring objects to layer presets does not work for objects that are in multiple layers.
Yeah, this is what I was saying. It'd be really hard to identify objects on multiple layers.
joeri wrote: O, don't click on the little buttons! (crazy people), use 1 to 9 keys and with shift to append selection.
Okay then. Since you've admitted to being a bit of an old-timer, perhaps you can explain then why 20 little buttons exist IN blender if we 'crazy' user-type folk aren't supposed to click them?

I also would have thought, since you like dispensing GUI user-advice of such high quality, that you'd have found the 0 (that's ZERO) key on your keyboard. It kind helps people activate/deactivate layers 10 & 20 :P

Never mind that you forgot to explain that you need the ALT key as well as shift to get to any layer higher than 10 (9 in your blender world). :D

joeri
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Post by joeri »

PolygoneUK wrote:
joeri wrote:Naming layers is very easy in blender.
You open a text editor and type someting like this:
1. Lamps
2. Motion paths
3. Objects for frame 1 till 100
4. Objects for frame 50 till 150
10. Garbage

This way any layer can be given any name up to any number of characters.
Proof if ever that you should not give advice on using blender's interface :P

Labelling layers or the buttons that represent layers is hardly a major issue now is it? Buttons in blender generally have text that accompanies them either through a tooltip or visual text.

Imagine if the render sequence button were just a little button tucked away with no text.

Blender has 20 layers, they exist before a user does anything to them. Therefore a user should be able to assign a label to those layers and visualy select which they want.

I think this step should be taken especially if Blender ever gets to the stage of being able to do independent render passes, as layer management could be very useful and productive.
joeri wrote: Coloring objects to layer presets does not work for objects that are in multiple layers.
Yeah, this is what I was saying. It'd be really hard to identify objects on multiple layers.
joeri wrote: O, don't click on the little buttons! (crazy people), use 1 to 9 keys and with shift to append selection.
Okay then. Since you've admitted to being a bit of an old-timer, perhaps you can explain then why 20 little buttons exist IN blender if we 'crazy' user-type folk aren't supposed to click them?

I also would have thought, since you like dispensing GUI user-advice of such high quality, that you'd have found the 0 (that's ZERO) key on your keyboard. It kind helps people activate/deactivate layers 10 & 20 :P

Never mind that you forgot to explain that you need the ALT key as well as shift to get to any layer higher than 10 (9 in your blender world). :D
And your point is?...

PolygoneUK
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:22 pm

Post by PolygoneUK »

joeri wrote:And your point is?...
Just that it seems when people suggest common-sense alterations and suggestions to the GUI, you get all old-fashioned and stuck in your ways with them.

Telling people they're crazy for using buttons IN blender doesn't help development either.

I feel that if the gui development were left purely in your hands, the blender community would be stuck with a command-line driven vertex coordinate entry system which they'd just have to 'get used to'.

Anyway, back on topic. Blender is far from perfect, is created by many people, and an update of layer management should at the very least be considered by people more open minded towards development and ideas than yourself. :idea:

joeri
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Post by joeri »

"Blender has 20 layers"
No, blender has 32 layers. 20 are displayed in the button grid. You should use num keys to access them .


"Proof if ever that you should not give advice on using blender's interface"
Yes you are entitled to an opinion.
But I think I'll win a match in using blender's interface by far from you.

"Buttons in blender generally have text that accompanies them either through a tooltip or visual text."
Only where needed.

"render sequence button"
There is no 'render sequence button' in blender.
Only a render and a sequence edit toggle.

"Blender has 20 layers, they exist before a user does anything to them. Therefore a user should be able to assign a label to those layers and visualy select which they want. "

Selecting visualy??? With there eye? By looking at them?

Users can label the buttons; open a text editor and type someting like this:
1. Lamps
2. Motion paths
3. Objects for frame 1 till 100
4. Objects for frame 50 till 150
10. Garbage
The now have visual where they use the layers for.

"I think this step should be taken especially if Blender ever gets to the stage of being able to do independent render passes, as layer management could be very useful and productive. "
Confussing render layers with render passes is done by many, so it's no shame that you also make this mistake.

"if we 'crazy' user-type folk aren't supposed to click them? "
Please note that you put yourself in the group of crazy people, not me.
"why 20 little buttons exist"
To look at them. Aren't they pretty?

"Never mind that you forgot to explain that you need the ALT key as well as shift to get to any layer higher than 10 (9 in your blender world)."
I did not explain alot more. But it seems that it didn't get in the way for you to understand it anyway. So I guess I got the level of your brain activity right this time.
Now lets see how long it takes for you to grasp mine.

PolygoneUK
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:22 pm

Post by PolygoneUK »

joeri wrote:"Blender has 20 layers"
No, blender has 32 layers. 20 are displayed in the button grid. You should use num keys to access them.
Even MORE reason to have a good layer management system.
joeri wrote: But I think I'll win a match in using blender's interface by far from you.
True, I've only been using blender for about a month, and what would I possibly know as a newbie about making suggestions on how well or how badly it works. (but newbies represent a LOT of your userbase, and to ignore them at the beginning means you'll lose support very quickly).
joeri wrote: Only where needed.
Yes. And with regards to layers, I along with others think a NEED exists.
joeri wrote: There is no 'render sequence button' in blender.
Only a render and a sequence edit toggle.
I didn't mean a "render sequence" button. (otherwise I'd have put it in quotes like that). I meant the sequence button toggle you mentioned. It is the render sequence button. I meant imagine if THAT were hidden or tucked away.
joeri wrote: Selecting visualy??? With there eye? By looking at them?
Now that's pedantic to say the least.
joeri wrote: Confussing render layers with render passes is done by many, so it's no shame that you also make this mistake.
Don't even think about it. I used to work with max, so I'm more than capable of distinguishing a render pass from a render layer. I just think that for organisation, some folk might arrange layers according to their render passes. It's not a far stretch of the imagination.
joeri wrote: "if we 'crazy' user-type folk aren't supposed to click them? "
Please note that you put yourself in the group of crazy people, not me.
I didn't put myself in the group. You called people who use the buttons crazy. YOU put users in the group, hence why I put the word 'crazy' in apostrophes like that. I'm certainly not in the crazy, but you said we are.
joeri wrote: "why 20 little buttons exist"
To look at them. Aren't they pretty?
See. A user asks a valid, poigniant question and you just smirk off.
joeri wrote: I did not explain alot more. But it seems that it didn't get in the way for you to understand it anyway. So I guess I got the level of your brain activity right this time.
Now lets see how long it takes for you to grasp mine.
Yeah, I understood it, but you were trying to tell others how it's done and they might not know. Could be tricky trying to tell someone how something works if you ASSUME they already know. Very poor exchange of information when you work that way.

As for your brain activity. I couldn't care less. You are older (but not necessarily wiser) than I, obviously had your prime years long ago, and are aged and stuck in your ways now.

You have my pity :D

I shall reply to your comments on development no more as your omnipotence is overwhelming oh mighty one. Pah, yeah. Right.

Any people in here REALLY interested in contributing towards making blender better?


Zingam
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:28 am

Post by Zingam »

If all computer scientist, computer programmers and computer users thought that nothing needs innovation and improvement and further development and experimenting new ideas, we would have still be stitting in front of green displays just like we did 20 years ago or even there would be 5-6 computers in existance in some creepy government institutions and nobody would could have imagined that 3D graphics could be possible.

Thanks God, not everybody is like Bill Gates: "640kb ought to be enough for anybody."

To the Developers: it's a great programm! Keep on improving it!

malefico
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:51 am

Post by malefico »

To add a note of colour to this discussion, we should remember that intrr has implemented a nice layer management systems for instinctive blender quite some time ago.

I'm still waiting for such system to be ported to BF.

Best regards, please don't hurt each other too much :D

malefico.

joeri
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Post by joeri »

"I didn't mean a "render sequence" button. (otherwise I'd have put it in quotes like that). I meant the sequence button toggle you mentioned. It is the render sequence button. I meant imagine if THAT were hidden or tucked away."

I don't get your point. The layer buttons are not hidden or tucked away.
They are in the header near the scene.
There is no room for a novel in the headerbar so the buttons are small.

Anyone can create a list of layers in python with names they want, far away in the text window. But layers in blender are bits based. A 32 bit int that keeps track in what layer an object is. The object knows in what layer it is in just 2 bytes. Changing this to a named layer system is not an easy task. And although wishfull to some, very unclear on what it should actualy do, what problem the naming should solve. And preferably without causing any new problems.

"Now that's pedantic to say the least."
No it's not. Layer buttons are best selected via keyboard, as stated many many times on this forum and on user forums.

" I just think that for organisation, some folk might arrange layers according to their render passes. It's not a far stretch of the imagination."
It's a limited stretch of the imagination. Render passes should hold (different) material settings, something you can't solve with naming layers.

"A user asks a valid, poigniant question and you just smirk off."
two words: Search forum.

"Yeah, I understood it, but you were trying to tell others how it's done and they might not know."
I'm sorry, I fortgot you are so much smarter then the rest in here.

"obviously had your prime years long ago"
True, I've won my bears and palms long ago.
Then again I've won best animation also a month ago,... So I'm not so sure what you are hinting about here.
Or are you talling about how my morph target idea got implemented last month? You are confusing me, your statements don't seem to be based on facts.

"You have my pity"
At least you care.

"I used to work with max"
And then it all got clear to me...

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