What about a new GUI?

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

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Igm
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Post by Igm »

The answer to this topic can't be more simple.

The fact of the matter is that Blender's interface is NOT complicated, nor disorganized, it's plain and simply un-intuitive, and VDark is right on the money with that. There are just certain ideas that are universal, and work for almost everybody. It's like saying:

"Lets make it so that instead of the arrow keys for direction, we use the A I K and R keys. People can learn to use it, and it does the same job anyway."

It's not about just "learning piano", it's about learning to play piano with your feet while the rest of the world is using their hands. I'm sure there's some very talanted people out there who prefer to use their feet for that.

There are plenty of conservative Blender fanatics who are trying to guard their precious interface with their life - it's simply because they have spent so much time learning the interface, they do not want to have their world turned on it's head. And they have a point too.

The solution is that the developers need to redo the interface only "under the hood", (as it's planned for 2.50 hopefully), and aim to make it as customizable as possible by the end user, while keeping the current look, hotkeys, menus etc. only as a "default setting". The current blender version has an acceptable level of customizability, but there's much more work to be done.

If the UI becomes fully customizable, i would start seriously thinking of replacing 3dsmax with Blender, because Blender is much more light, free, and can do almost 80-90% of what i can do with 3dsmax.

Azrael
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Post by Azrael »

Some people will say tutorials will become hard to follow since not everyone's UI will be in the same place.

But! Each UI item or entity is a stardard panel. And if you want, we could store quick keys/themes in a theme file. So if you do want to follow a tutorial and your are having trouble running it with ur UI config, just install that theme.

:-)

jayr
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:23 am

Post by jayr »

joeri

Your hacker ethic is showing again. We don't care what you think of this nightmare UI. We made it so its "KING". a bit egocentric on your part. The rest of you noobs use this gift or shut up!

About your example of Office, did you know that Ctr-S is to save a document. On a Mac its Command-S not Command-W, "S" key is only a coincidence. Also did you know that you can move those little icons around? Ohh wait... it's icons we don't need those. In addtion did you know you can add and remove stuff in those tabs on a granular level.

Maybe you guys need to learn from Office.


Trying hard not to be a troll

zingbat
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:36 am

Post by zingbat »

jayr wrote:Trying hard not to be a troll
You can act like a normal human being and listen to other peoples arguments? That's amazing.

Look is it that hard to realize that not everyone finds Blender horrible and unusable? Many professionals use it without problems to create professional work. Not everyone thinks the way you do and barking it out loud with insults won't change anything.

Blender people have constantly improved Blender according to the agenda and needs of those who use it most and Blender is going to have a major update to the gui that will cover almost all the criticism that was presented in this thread.

So i don't know why you don't shut up and stop being an obnoxious little bitch.

jayr
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:23 am

Post by jayr »

So i don't know why you don't shut up and stop being an obnoxious little bitch.
Three reasons.

1. Because I don't know why so many users like to do things the hard way.

2. This debate has been going on now for well over 5 years.

3. The developers can't/don't get it.

Best.

Igm
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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:44 pm

Post by Igm »

1. Because I don't know why so many users like to do things the hard way.
The term "Hard way" is a very subjective one. I don't approve how the current UI is done, but i'm not forcing my own preferences to everyone else. The key here, as i mentioned above, is customizability.
2. This debate has been going on now for well over 5 years.
Yes that is true, it is indicative of the fact that the current interface is not right, and that the problem won't go away by itself. Many people are annoyed that they have such a wonderful product offered to them, but they cannot apply their past experience when using it and are forced to re-learn and get used to even its' most ridiculous aspects.
3. The developers can't/don't get it.
Believe me, they get it... But few people dare to get their hands dirty and dig deep into the code to fix it. Thats why there is a whole pre-planned, massive rewrite in 2.50 scheduled - it's a tough job. It's something that should've been addressed a long time ago, and i hope they do it right at last.


Jayr may be acting a bit like a troll, but i do not blame him, because i share his frustration.
So i don't know why you don't shut up and stop being an obnoxious little bitch.
And that goes to you too, zingbat, you can't say phrases like "obnoxious little bitch" and expect to avoid a hostile response thrown back at you.

zingbat
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Post by zingbat »

Igm wrote:And that goes to you too, zingbat, you can't say phrases like "obnoxious little bitch" and expect to avoid a hostile response thrown back at you.
No, but it's obvious that he doesn't recognize anyone elses opinion except his own.
Igm wrote:Jayr may be acting a bit like a troll, but i do not blame him, because i share his frustration.
Blender is an open source project. Don't blame it's team for serving the people who contribute to it and keeping the project alive. If it didn't you would not even had this half-assed modeler in the first place.

Igm
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Post by Igm »

No, but it's obvious that he doesn't recognize anyone elses opinion except his own.
That may be so, i don't see your answer to him as a very constructive one though.
Blender is an open source project. Don't blame it's team for serving the people who contribute to it and keeping the project alive. If it didn't you would not even had this half-assed modeler in the first place.
This is precisely the root of my frustration - a revolutionary opensource tool, with so much effort put into it, provides the kind of features you find in high-end apps, but is left unappreciated by the majority of 3D artists and beginners out there because of it's interface. I have never blamed the team for this. The interface is like that because blender started as an in-house tool. And in any case, blaming is irrelevant.

Azrael
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Post by Azrael »

The interface isn't that way because it was an in-house tool. It's that way, because that's what they wanted at the time, when it had 1/20th of the features it has today.

I got used to it--kind of, I get where the ideas behind it lie. And you'd see my UI posts don't try to make it look like Maya or Max.

One nice thing about Maya is it's shelf, some things are just pretty damn practical, even office has this.

One nice thing about Max is it's parametric non-destructive editing called the MODIFIER STACK. Some things are just good. But the rest of max's interface is not my cup of tea.

But the truth of why changing the interface hasn't been addressed before is because programming an interface is not "fun" and not a prime directive to getting eye to eye with the competition out there.

But seriously, I think there are great things that are coming in 2.5, there's going to be and is, some great thought going into the interface, how to restructure it so it's more efficient not "more beautiful" or more like "XYZ" application. They are going to churn out a lean mean practical interface. It wont look like Max or Maya it'll look like blender with a hell of a lot less wrinkles in it.

Blender is individualistic.

And so is the community, all of us here have a certain investment in blender, which is why there is so much passion. But when someone asks or suggests change, instead of being guarded and offended, lend an ear. They could be right, or they could be wrong--or they could give you an even better idea.

If blender is going to get any bigger it has to get a hell of a lot more efficient in how it handles me, my keyboard and my mouse--And it will.

No more fighting for petty reasons, no more attacking a persons intellect because you are backed into a wall. This is a critical dialog, this is a debate. Immaturity reflects badly on us all.

Igm
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Post by Igm »

The interface isn't that way because it was an in-house tool. It's that way, because that's what they wanted at the time, when it had 1/20th of the features it has today.
Yes, this is the definition of an in-house-tool - a rather quick and dirty program designed to do a set of tasks, which is hard-coded with the preferences of the small group of people who made it.

Anyway, i agree with the rest of your post, we don't want a clone of 3DS Max or anything. There is a set of things that need to be changed, some of them were addressed in the recent blender conference HERE.

This is my personal wishlist for the UI:

1. Customizable mouse and keyboard control. - These things are very subjective with every individual. Customizable hotkeys will allow the user to optimize their workflow by themselves instead of struggling with a predefined law.

2. Improved selection - Clicking on the area outside of an object should deselect it, clicking outside and dragging the mouse should activate a lasso tool for selecting multiple objects or multiple faces on a mesh. It's like this in almost every UI out there. The Border tool (B) does this in the current blender, but it's still too cumbersome to be used seriously. This will make things easier with the UV editor aswell.

3. Overlapping windows - I approve of the current non-modal design of blender, however, some things like the UV editor are too important to be making a size compromise with the rest of the interface, my screen is not big enough to fit every menu in it. The solution - add the ability to launch seperate hovering windows ontop of the interface. They can be of any type (UV editor, buttons window, user preferences, what have you) depending on the which hotkey was pressed (or button clicked).

4. Customizable toolbars - The ability to adjust which buttons go where is crucial when streamlining Blender for a particular job (animation, unwrapping, modelling, rendering...)

5. Context-specific toolbars - this was addressed in the conference video - by selecting an object of particular type (mesh, spline, curve, path light...) the toolbar on the right should show only things relevant to the type of object. This is somewhat related to the custmizable toolbars.

6. Transform Gizmo tweaks - Very simple things - have the seperate axis light up when the mouse hovers over them and add dual-axis translation like in 3dsmax (XY, XZ, YZ).

7. Modifier stack - this is not so important since blender already has something like this. A non-destructive way to modify objects is quite handy, there should be more ways to change the different aspects of an object without destroying the hierarchy.

joeri
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Post by joeri »

jayr wrote:Your hacker ethic is showing again.
Lol... You make that sound like it's a bad thing.

Blender is a little unorthodox. Then again, if blender was made to conform it probably was not free.
I think its great that blender is besides a great tool to express ideas in the third dimension its also a free platform to innovate. And innovation means trying out new ideas. This has brought to us , amongst global innovation as the non overlapping windows also small great tools like the fantastic UV unwrapper. And I don't care if Word has this unwrapper under the U or the V. I'm Dutch so to me the S for "bewaren" has the same abstraction as W.

I do know that treating highly intelligent people as if they are dumb does not work for your case, and it's you that wants something from the developers community, not the other way around.

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