What about a new GUI?

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

Moderators: jesterKing, stiv

AndyD
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Post by AndyD »

It use third button single-click, which double the productivity !!!
I get your point on the double-clicking phenomena but as a one-button mouse user, I find the second and third button somewhat awkard to click.
What about a zooming stuff like that Apple dock ?
As a Mac user I have to say I don't like the dock an awful lot and the very first thing I did was disable the cartoony zooming Genie effect (yuck! :) ) In fact. I find the OS X GUI far too cute for my liking - it seems like everything has at least ten colours and three dimensions and a little transparency for good measure. And it seems that something jumps around somewhere at every second mouse click. Talk about "get used to it" - after to years of everyday use, I'm still getting used to it :(

Interestingly, since using Blender (around 3 months now), I find myself experiencing difficulties with my everyday software (all Adobe) - I keep hitting +- to zoom in/out and keep trying to scroll screens with Option-Shift and select things by holding down the Apple key first. I guess that says something about the strength of Blender's interface.
Andy D

I'm a great speller but a hopless tpyist

pasmoi
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Post by pasmoi »

AndyD wrote:
It use third button single-click, which double the productivity !!!
I get your point on the double-clicking phenomena but as a one-button mouse user, I find the second and third button somewhat awkard to click.
Unfortunately for the mac users blender is made from the beginning with 3 buttons mouse in mind, since it was a Unix based apps and that most unix box have a 3 buttons mouse.

So, holding alt+single click does the job ;-)

For me it's not a issue since I work with the left hand on the keyboard and the right hand on the mouse.

You can also buy a 3 buttons usb mouse, chances are that it will work off the shelf with Aqua, which is already design with 2 button mouse in mind, the right button equal ctrl+click, it brings pop-up contextual menu in the finder.

The wheel is also supported, and there's even some apps where alt+wheel will scroll the horizontal drag bar instead of the vertical one.

Apple even have a brand new mouse with 5 buttons and a X+Y trackball like wheel !
AndyD wrote:
What about a zooming stuff like that Apple dock ?
As a Mac user I have to say I don't like the dock an awful lot and the very first thing I did was disable the cartoony zooming Genie effect (yuck! :) ) In fact. I find the OS X GUI far too cute for my liking - it seems like everything has at least ten colours and three dimensions and a little transparency for good measure. And it seems that something jumps around somewhere at every second mouse click. Talk about "get used to it" - after to years of everyday use, I'm still getting used to it :(
The shame is that you can't turn it off, unless using additional software to "skin" Aqua, I like flat interfaces.
AndyD wrote:Interestingly, since using Blender (around 3 months now), I find myself experiencing difficulties with my everyday software (all Adobe) - I keep hitting +- to zoom in/out and keep trying to scroll screens with Option-Shift and select things by holding down the Apple key first. I guess that says something about the strength of Blender's interface.
Yeah that's one of the ambigous side of Blender, since it doesn't follow the OS interface design, it make oneself a bit lost at first, then if you like it, it make oneself a bit frustrated when using any other apps :-)

I've read in that thread, that some peoples would like to have blender fit the OS interface design, while I love Blender because it's just look like the same on every OS, so when I have to work on different OS there's no "get use to all specific OS interface design"

Also these peoples that want Blender to fit every OS interface design, I'm wondering if they customize their Blender interface, or use the default setup ?

Because that's one of the strengh of the Blender interface, if you don't like it you can change it ! And not just the color and the fonts, but the workflow.

:!: Designing a good user interface is not that easy, and it's even harder for blender, since it run on many platforms, there are even cultural issues here.

:arrow: The perfect exemple is the mouse :

Mac users : one mouse button is the best ( read : because I'm used to it, it's not a logical statement but an habit )
windows users : two mouse button is the best ( read : because I'm used to it, it's not a logical statement but an habit )
Unix users : three mouse button is the best ( read : because I'm used to it, it's not a logical statement but an habit )

:?: So scientificaly who is right ?

:arrow: Also there is the way the brain works, more you know the inner mechanisms of the brain, better you can fit it's mechanisms, then better the work flow.

Sign road are design not to evoke an idea but to be interpreted as fast and as clearly and as errorless as possible by the brain.

The brain is fallible machine design to correct it's very own errors.

:arrow: Also, like joeri said, peoples like metaphor ( and skins ).

:idea: Keeping all that in mind and trying to find an almost perfect balance for the DEFAULT GUI is quite a hard task !

For me a good interface is one that never use word, like an old tape player.
this is my signature, behold my typing power !

TroutMaskReplica
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Post by TroutMaskReplica »

i don't have time to read this tired thread, but i'd just like to say one thing i've noticed is that the people who are most vocal about how bad blender's interface is, are the people who are the least proficient with blender.

after a couple of years of using blender and after having used other, commercial 3d software, i have to say blender's UI is the best. i'm able to work quickly and efficiently in blender. some of the minor nuisances (such as the inability to tab through text fields) have been addressed with 2.40, and i find the blender UI to be almost perfect now.

to those who complain the buttons take up to much space: you do know that shift spacebar puts the 3d view in full screen, right? and that most modeling operations can be accessed without ever having to push a button? not to mention the workspace can be configured with nearly limitless possibilities. if you don't understand this you don't know the software very well.

maybe actually learn to use the software. then it will be easier. it is a poor musician who blames his instrument.

TroutMaskReplica
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Post by TroutMaskReplica »

a violin is hard to learn how to play, does that mean we should dumb it down too?

Money_YaY!
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Post by Money_YaY! »

TroutMaskReplica wrote:a violin is hard to learn how to play, does that mean we should dumb it down too?
Yeah but a violin is easy to use. you pluck a cord and bafph! It makes a sound... Blender an'nt a violen.. Would you drive a truck with a flight control airplane button set up??

though that would be fun for the first ten minutes
Last edited by Money_YaY! on Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Money_YaY!
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Post by Money_YaY! »

TroutMaskReplica wrote:i don't have time to read this tired thread, but i'd just like to say one thing i've noticed is that the people who are most vocal about how bad blender's interface is, are the people who are the least proficient with blender.

after a couple of years of using blender and after having used other, commercial 3d software, i have to say blender's UI is the best. i'm able to work quickly and efficiently in blender. some of the minor nuisances (such as the inability to tab through text fields) have been addressed with 2.40, and i find the blender UI to be almost perfect now.

to those who complain the buttons take up to much space: you do know that shift spacebar puts the 3d view in full screen, right? and that most modeling operations can be accessed without ever having to push a button? not to mention the workspace can be configured with nearly limitless possibilities. if you don't understand this you don't know the software very well.

maybe actually learn to use the software. then it will be easier. it is a poor musician who blames his instrument.
put glue nails and little doors on that instrument, then see how easy and fast you can use it... Plus an instrument is a real physcal object. Blender is a virtual object with only one input devise. a click. Ya cant do jack without that one stupid click, you can press keys all you want but the fact is nothing happens without a click. and in the case on blender and windows and ui, one click in usealy hunt and digg for those clicks.

While a physical instrument can be used in a manor of ways to make it create sounds faster.. A tooth brush, a hammer. hell just twapping the strings with you ten fingers will make sounds out of it..,


Art is art, while a tool is only used if it is used.

paulfynch
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Post by paulfynch »

TroutMaskReplica wrote:i don't have time to read this tired thread, but i'd just like to say one thing i've noticed is that the people who are most vocal about how bad blender's interface is, are the people who are the least proficient with blender...
Hey guys, I didn't read the whole thread either, but from what I have seen so far (2.41, and some corresponding tutes), blender has an awesome flexible interface. divide windows, save layouts, maximize focused windows, scalable tabs, drag, drop, slam, bam, take it home baby!!! this application has it!

I've done lightwave, and its counter-intuitive, 3dsmax, its ok, but im the kinda guy that wants things my way...why?? kuz im a developer. we hack, we slice, we customize. we like shortcuts, we like our cake.

Blender looks awesome, i am going to dive head-first into this program. I have used a couple different modellers (zbrush, animation master, lw, etc) and as many renderers, but with the game engine and the dedicated team working on this project, blender has it going on...

So to the geeks that are running the show, keep on geekin man, you're doin great!

my .02, thanks for hearin me out
pf

ps...where do i donate?

an-toni
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:20 pm

Post by an-toni »

paulfynch,

this site has many links which end up in the eSHOP - you can for example buy a bunch of old manuals, or order Orange DVDs for you and all your pals ;)

~Toni

p.s. i also think Blender is great, like Emacs or something .. there even is a patch for emacs keybindings! :roll:

avaktar2
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Re: What about a new GUI?

Post by avaktar2 »

Zingam wrote:I think that Blender needs a radical redesign of its GUI. Here is why: I've compared Lightwave 3D and Blender. Blender's buttons etc. eat up much more space than those of Lightwave 3D, so we have much less drawing space to work on.
This was posted in 2005, and I dug it up in a search. I'm using Blender 2.47-RC2 now, and a very cool trick I learned was to size your buttons window smaller than the panels appear to be, and then hit the HOME key. Just like in 3D view, this shrinks all of your objects (in this case, the panels) to fit in the window! On a widescreen LCD with my buttons to the right, I use up a mere 2.5" of horizontal screenspace (but the button fonts get pretty small!)
A good addition would be if there are title bars of some sort in each view to let us know in a more clear way if it is a top view, etc. and ability to predefine different GUI layouts.
The orientation XYZ graphic in the lower left corner tells you which view you are in: XZ for front, XY for top, YZ for right side. These are inverted if you're looking at the back or left side.

Saving a different GUI layout is pretty much as easy as loading up the default blender config, setting things the way you want them, and saving it with a new name. But there's still only one default :) Maybe it would be nice to load a configuration and apply it to the current working project.

qazaq
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Post by qazaq »

I registered here because I feel that now is the only time to say that I don't use blender because after several tries gui was unacceptable for me. This is main barrier that discourages me from using blender even if I wish I could use it because of its great possibilities. I tried several different 3d software and I feel... blender has the worst interface.
I'm not saying this because I just looked at it and turned off. I spent a lot of hours to customize blender's gui to remind somehow this met in many 3d software, but without luck.

I'll give you an example:
I like to have brighter colors in interface to better fit my windows theme so I used gray/blue/white skin/theme for blender. This step went fine :)
Next I did reorganization of panels (I can't call them windows) because I always find easier to work with 4 views. I have better orientation in 3d space then and better preview on animations. Also I wanted to have function panel from top to bottom at right, scaling, rotate and object selection bar at the top of main window and timeline at down of the main window. Everything to remind me 3dsmax interface. Until then everything was ok.
Problems begun when I wanted to move or rotate objects. Top bar seems to be unusable because tool that i select in it applies only to this one window which is actually hidden - to reveal only this bar. So I removed it and added small bar at bottom of each view. Next problem was that i don't have such high resolution to keep all translation buttons visible at each window, so again - I CAN'T EVEN ROTATE AND MOVE OBJECTS BECAUSE LACK OF ACCESS TO MAIN BASIC FUNCTION BUTTONS.
Second problem I met was that when I want to export things to my favorite outside renderer using exporting script/plugin ;| I'm simply unable to use it. Plugin was designed to be viewed at main center panel. At my resolution it's not possible to fit it to any of my view panels, because everything is cropped and still I can't get access to main buttons and main functions of exporter.

Main problems for me here are non overlapping of panels and independence of functions on each view. I'm strongly against it! If there was selection and translation menu which was global applied to every view I wouldn't have problems with access to basic functions. If there was possibility to overlap plugin window or node editor over main window (maybe let me to move it freely around and simply close or minimize when it's not in use) I would be able to export something or create complex material without reorganizing my workspace...


I FEEL I'M FORCED ALL THE TIME TO USE ONLY ONE VIEW WHICH IS UNNATURAL FOR ME AND MY WORKFLOW REALLY SUFFERS FROM IT.

:cry: :cry: :(

kAinStein
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Post by kAinStein »

Have you thought about creating several screens for different purposes or using Blender as it is supposed to be used? And why the heck do you want to use Blender if its interface is so bad? Wouldn't it be only natural to use 3D Studio Max instead if you like the way of working there?

. o O (And why the heck does a nearly 3 year old thread which died 2 1/2 years ago have to be brought up again?)

joeri
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Post by joeri »

qazaq wrote:
I FEEL I'M FORCED ALL THE TIME TO USE ONLY ONE VIEW WHICH IS UNNATURAL FOR ME AND MY WORKFLOW REALLY SUFFERS FROM IT.
How is a GUI change going to change how you feel?
Buy a new screen and all your problems will be fixed.

I know you can buy loads of nice screens from the money you'll be saving from not buying a commercial license.

Azrael
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THE UI

Post by Azrael »

BLENDER INTERFACE NEEDS CHANGE... OR DOES IT?

You know... Seriously how many NEW users do you have to listen to about the new UI before we meet halfway in the middle. Years of this... And good news is... We can all shut up and wait, because the UI is going to change. We've been hearing about it for a while and there are even videos of some of the goodies.

I think Ton and the dev's are seriously taking usability into mind. But Blender is Blender and it was built on a certain paradigm. Some things are different and a lot of it is great. But if you can pinpoint a single problem you've encountered, instead of saying "They need to change the UI", people will freak out. They ALSO have their workflow which they are used to in Blender. Name something *broken* and offer a better alternative, I am sure people would be willing to listen.

Be Specific about the problem, show us an example. Offer a solution.

Loolarge
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Post by Loolarge »

what qazaq is saying about the header bar is true, but it does not really bother me so much. If i need to access a hidden button and don't know it's shortcut, i just make the window fullscreen for a sec.

Apart from that i happen to like the general gui alot. It is very quick and responsive. I do get confused about the buttons window from time to time though, i keep forgetting where certain button are.

I think the devs should just keep building on what's allready there, it's pretty good allready.

That being said, i am still exploring the app so i might miss some things. The outliner needs some more love, thats for sure. And i am looking forward to having the console output inside the gui.

Also being able to rotate muiltiple objects in an FK-manner like in other apps (Maya, XSI) I mean they should rotate all, atm in blender only the first of the hierarchy does.

I made a wishlist if anybody wants to have a read: http://www.blender.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13732
Last edited by Loolarge on Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

joeri
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Post by joeri »

"I think Ton and the dev's are seriously taking usability into mind."

This is the worst insult I did hear in years.

Usability was always in their minds.
I have yet to see a ( of-the-shelf ) 3d package that can be used during development, that has features installed during production. That has a framework that lets itself be expanded with ease. That has a lightning speed fast interface ( seen the creature factory dvd yet ? ).

So some newbees dont "get it by looking at it" ... This is not going to change by an interface change.

Dont expect everybody to be all "happy happy, joy joy" when 2.5 gets here. It will have some changes like headers on other places, some different shape of buttons and some customize features ( which will be of no use to new users as they need to understand the documentation ).
Unless I'm missreading the 2.5 development documents ( possible ).

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