A fixed i18n and l10n interface?

The interface, modeling, 3d editing tools, import/export, feature requests, etc

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franzrogar
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:02 pm

A fixed i18n and l10n interface?

Post by franzrogar »

Hello:

It'd be fantastic having a GUI i18n/l10n bugs free. It's annoying seeing all the times these 3 ones:

[#1] http://projects.blender.org/tracker/ind ... 9&atid=125
It shows up the MO info in the 'User Preferences' Add menu. (See the attached screenshot to the tracker). The bug is related to "Textured Fonts"

[#2] http://projects.blender.org/tracker/ind ... 9&atid=125 When you resize the window size and the buttons are resized too, the translated text doesn't fit in the button and Blender shows the "english" word.

[#3] https://projects.blender.org/tracker/?f ... 9&atid=264 Untranslatable Strings.

[#4] And for the i18n it's even more difficult to fix: Follow the GNU gettext standards about using it into the source code. It's almost impossible to get a usable and clean PO file to translate the GUI: 36% of strings are missing, 12% needs a hackcode, 10% are untranslatable... quite annoying.

Please, if someone has programming skills and want to fix these bugs, please, join the Blender Team!. We, the non-english community, we'll be proud to you.

EDIT: Udated links, updated info, please help Blender to fix them!.
Last edited by franzrogar on Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

eon
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Post by eon »

I am currently translating blender UI in french and i agree this post

LetterRip
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:03 am

Post by LetterRip »

please post that in the bug tracker
[#2] The translated buttons, when you resize the window size and the buttons are more little, the text doesn't fit and Blender shows the "english" word.
Thanks,

LetterRip

franzrogar
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:02 pm

Post by franzrogar »

Added as bug #3292

http://projects.blender.org/tracker/ind ... 9&atid=125

I hope they can be fixed before next major release. It'd be fantastic.

franzrogar
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:02 pm

Post by franzrogar »

EDIT: Bad news. It has only worked 1 time. Next time i opened the build, it returned to show the MO info...... This is driving me mad.

Good news! The bug [1] related to the GUI is fixed in the build made by lguillaume at [2]. Don't know if it's into the official tree.

Could anyone post an 'official CVS' (latest) build for Windows to investigate?. Thanks you very much.

Please, correct the bug [3].

[1] http://projects.blender.org/tracker/ind ... 9&atid=125
[2] http://blender.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7273
[3] http://projects.blender.org/tracker/ind ... 9&atid=125

franzrogar
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Post by franzrogar »

Sorry for being re-posting again.

FOUND WHAT MAKES THAT 1ST BUG [1] HAPPENS:
The problem is "Textured Fonts". If we dissable this option, the strings are shown correctly.


http://projects.blender.org/tracker/ind ... 9&atid=125

franzrogar
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:02 pm

Post by franzrogar »

You were proud to announce that Inteface "can be translated". So Why the priority to fix this bugs that makes translation useless has the priority "3" near to the less one?.

Bugs:
http://projects.blender.org/tracker/?fu ... group_id=9

http://projects.blender.org/tracker/?fu ... group_id=9

Thanks.

Note: The project needs one person who knows programming (i don't know enough to work with the GUI even with cmdline). Please, someone, help the project to fix these bugs!.

djcapelis
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Location: Ca, US

Post by djcapelis »

I was actually the one who most recently marked your bug as a lower priority. Let me explain how the priority system works and what usually causes developers to mark bugs higher and lower priorities so you understand how this all works.

First off, one thing you need to understand is that the priority field has very little to do with how fast bugs get fixed or how they're sorted in the bugtracker. Bugs that range across a large number of subsystems and cause crashes that prevent the application from working at all are the type of bugs that usually get a higher ranking. Bugs that are limited to a small sub-system that only deals with a segment of the user population are usually marked down. Usually crashes are considered a lot more critical than user interface issues.

It isn't that UI issues aren't important to developers, releases have been held up over names of buttons before, but we have to focus on the most critical issues that effect the most users first.

Given that your bugs amounts to a major annoyance for a small segment of blender users, it's been marked as a lesser priority than some other bugs that cause the application to completely do a segmentation fault for all of our users over an even more common usage pattern. The important thing to remember is that just because it's marked a lower priority doesn't mean that the bug won't be assigned to a developer who can work on it and get resolved quite quickly, any open bug is a bad thing.

As it is, the longest one of these two bugs has been in the system is for about 10 days, the other less than 5, these things aren't solved in a day. Some bugs can take a lot of time to track down and fix, all the blender developers are really busy at the moment, slow down and actually give someone time to fix your bug before you worry that it's being ignored.

Meanwhile, continue testing and providing feedback, but try to be understanding of how things work, not everything can happen instantly, some things take time.

franzrogar
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Post by franzrogar »

Bugs that are limited to a small sub-system that only deals with a segment of the user population are usually marked down.
Are you saying that "Small sub-system" is the whole GUI?. I want remember you that the 3 bugs shown here affect the whole GUI.
It isn't that UI issues aren't important to developers, releases have been held up over names of buttons before, but we have to focus on the most critical issues that effect the most users first.
Do you want that I ask how many users are non native english?.
I think they're the "most users"...
Is that a "segment of user population"?
Still thinking if your first phrase of this paragrah is true...
As it is, the longest one of these two bugs has been in the system is for about 10 days, the other less than 5, these things aren't solved in a day.
Well... it seems you're a english speacker... They're since 2.28 if I remember, or 2.30.
And another thing: i was not "challenge" saying "FIX THEM NOW!", i was challenge (if you have read the mail list to say "HEY! I'M IMPORTANT!".

Meanwhile, continue testing and providing feedback, but try to be understanding of how things work, not everything can happen instantly, some things take time.
I know they take many time and you're overloaded, buy say me if I was mistaken: are this bugs important enough to let them a high priority?.

I've 'explained' why to your thoughts don't seem valid, explain mines.

If not, here's a nice link: [1]
Ton aswered this message with a nice explication and kindly and "left" the high priority, because this bug is important!. Also the others two ones, because with this 3 bugs the i18n and l10n server for nothing, useless!.

Please, if someone has programming skills and want to fix these bugs, please, join the Blender Team!. We, the non-english community, we'll be proud to you.

[1] https://projects.blender.org/tracker/?f ... 9&atid=264

djcapelis
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Post by djcapelis »

franzrogar wrote:Are you saying that "Small sub-system" is the whole GUI?. I want remember you that the 3 bugs shown here affect the whole GUI.
I'm not saying the GUI is a small sub-system, but I am saying it's _one_ subsystem so it only deals with a small pool of developers and not something the entire project can go rush off and fix. Bugs that go across multiple sub-systems such as a bug that affects the amature, GE and rending systems all at once becomes something that takes a long coordinated effort to accomplish.
franzrogar wrote:Do you want that I ask how many users are non native english?.
I think they're the "most users"...
Is that a "segment of user population"?
Still thinking if your first phrase of this paragrah is true...
Quite a lot are non-native english, but many can understand english which is enough to use blender's interface. Furthermore most of the bugs have a workaround even if it's a pain. The users who are denied use of the application isn't 100% whereas with most bugs it is. I myself focus on providing support for linux users, which are also just a segment of the blender users and I mark linux related bugs to a low priority as well. I routinely mark bugs that only affect linux users down to three simply because it doesn't effect all users.

Believe me, I understand we can't forget certain types of users and I focus a lot of my work in making sure we don't, but if it doesn't effect everyone, it's not a 9, it's that simple.

Also, though I am a native english speaker, most of the development team is not.
franzrogar wrote:Well... it seems you're a english speacker... They're since 2.28 if I remember, or 2.30.
And another thing: i was not "challenge" saying "FIX THEM NOW!", i was challenge (if you have read the mail list to say "HEY! I'M IMPORTANT!".
I think everyone here agrees it's an important issue, but you need to understand that it's not the only thing that has to happen right now, we're in the middle of releasing 2.40-alpha2 and there's a LOT that has to be done before we can even think about new bug reports. Continue to provide feedback but try not to be pushy, you won't help get anything fixed any faster that way and I think there's quite a few people that feel you're pushing this issue much too hard.
franzrogar wrote:I know they take many time and you're overloaded, buy say me if I was mistaken: are this bugs important enough to let them a high priority?.
They are important, but they are definitely not priority 9. There's no open bug in the bugtracker at this time rated that highly and these are many critical issues out there.
franzrogar wrote:I've 'explained' why to your thoughts don't seem valid, explain mines.

If not, here's a nice link: [1]
Ton aswered this message with a nice explication and kindly and "left" the high priority, because this bug is important!. Also the others two ones, because with this 3 bugs the i18n and l10n server for nothing, useless!.
Well, you'll notice that issue isn't even in the bug tracker, it's in a separate tracker. You'll also notice that Ton rarely changes priority and priority is usually a field that other developers come along and change to help them with their own internal listing, many developers don't use this tool at all and you'll notice a considerable amount of bugs are created at pri 5 and never change from that.

If a developer changes the priority of your bug they've almost always have done so for a reason, please stop changing it because you end up interferring with continued work on blender. I personally like the fact that we allow users access to the priority field so they can work with developers to properly set that field correctly, but if users continue to interfere with the fixing of bugs by setting crazy priorities then it's going to be something that counter productive and such access might have to be changed. So instead of using that field to try and disagree with the developers, try to use it to work with them, alright?
franzrogar wrote:Please, if someone has programming skills and want to fix these bugs, please, join the Blender Team!. We, the non-english community, we'll be proud to you.
We always need new help on the team and the translation effort in particular could use a skill developer to help. It we be great to see progress on this.

z3r0_d
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Post by z3r0_d »

franzrogar wrote:
Bugs that are limited to a small sub-system that only deals with a segment of the user population are usually marked down.
Are you saying that "Small sub-system" is the whole GUI?. I want remember you that the 3 bugs shown here affect the whole GUI.
... I really hate to say this... but:

if it's such a big deal, why can't you fix it?

nobody said the current blender developers are the only ones that can fix things like this. People working on the translation issues of the ui seem quite welcome... there are lots of issues with the ui and internationalization that need to be fixed... some of which have been fixed in other trees [like unicode fonts in the text window] and simply aren't in the main tree [and I don't belive became stable enough for it]

[I am NOT the correct person to be saying this.... [and I'm hoping to get away from blender anyway]]

franzrogar
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Post by franzrogar »

djcapelis wrote:
Bugs that go across multiple sub-systems such as a bug that affects the amature, GE and rending systems all at once becomes something that takes a long coordinated effort to accomplish.
I think that without GUI the armature, GE and rendering systems serves for... nothing?. Well, don't want to drive me mad.
Furthermore most of the bugs have a workaround even if it's a pain.
False. I've been working to find a way of showing the l10n correctly modifying the text size, fitting to pixels... etc. And i've been 2 years working in Blender-i18n (final process: creation of a PO file).
I myself focus on providing support for linux users, which are also just a segment of the blender users and I mark linux related bugs to a low priority as well. I routinely mark bugs that only affect linux users down to three simply because it doesn't effect all users.
I don't think like you. If it's a bug, it's a bug. It doesn't matter if it's on Windows, Linux, Irix or watever OS.
Believe me, I understand we can't forget certain types of users and I focus a lot of my work in making sure we don't, but if it doesn't effect everyone, it's not a 9, it's that simple.
See first response.
If a developer changes the priority of your bug they've almost always have done so for a reason, please stop changing it because you end up interferring with continued work on blender.
Well... it seems we don't speack the same language (it's obvious). I stopped when Alexandro? said it to the mailling list. Then, I began to write here.... So I STOPPED!....
I personally like the fact that we allow users access to the priority field so they can work with developers to properly set that field correctly, but if users continue to interfere with the fixing of bugs by setting crazy priorities then it's going to be something that counter productive and such access might have to be changed. So instead of using that field to try and disagree with the developers, try to use it to work with them, alright?
All this "fight" could be "forgotten" if when you, the non-"users", have had written a "this bug has this priority because that" into the bug itself. Example: one of the bugs, first change made by one of you was to reset it to 5, now it's to 3.... consistency... what are the real priority level?. You though 3 another one 5, I think 7 or 9.... who must decide it's real priority level?.
So instead of using that field to try and disagree with the developers, try to use it to work with them, alright?
I'm bored of saying all the time: I'VE NO PROGRAMMING SKILLS!. If not, I have had corrected them long time ago!.
We always need new help on the team and the translation effort in particular could use a skill developer to help. It we be great to see progress on this.
I've written a full guide about the last process in i18n in Blender (extraction a configuration of a PO file) which is better than using GNU gettext of the mygettext python scripts made by oyster. Because I've hackcoded the PO file to translate almost the 99% of the GUI. But, when the button is resized that translation DISSAPEARS because of those bugs!.

z3r0_d wrote:[/quote]
Well, you'll notice that issue isn't even in the bug tracker, it's in a separate tracker.

Well... I didn't see it. I commited it to the bug tracker and Ton moved it into TODO section. Originally, it was at the bug section. It's not my "mea culpa".

I think everyone here agrees it's an important issue, but you need to understand that it's not the only thing that has to happen right now, we're in the middle of releasing 2.40-alpha2 and there's a LOT that has to be done before we can even think about new bug reports.

I know, i'm working in 18n! and l10n!. And, as I said, please, read my last post again ("if they're noone working in, it's different, they can't be fixed''.


... I really hate to say this... but:

And i really hate to say this: i don't know programming. So that's why I'm asking people to help Blender project.

why can't you fix it?

See above.


Please, if someone has programming skills and want to fix these bugs, please, join the Blender Team!. We, the non-english community, we'll be proud to you.

djcapelis
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Location: Ca, US

Post by djcapelis »

You don't need programming skills to work with the developers instead of yelling at them. You seem quite confrontational and aggressive.

For the sake of actually fixing these bugs it would probably be best if you relaxed a bit and let things take their natural course. I think that's all anyone here has been trying to say.

franzrogar
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:02 pm

Post by franzrogar »

Ok, as you want.

Please, if someone has programming skills and want to fix these bugs, please, join the Blender Team!. We, the non-english community, we'll be proud of you.

Note: updated info at the first message of this post.

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