THE N-GONS PROJECT

Compiling, libraries, modules, coding guidelines and porting

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Youssef|3d
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:02 pm

THE N-GONS PROJECT

Post by Youssef|3d » Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:27 pm

hi all :D

many people ask "why you need N-GONS" well, let me answer this question with some examples.
N-GONS are very flexible and you can model very fast and very clean :wink:
I don't say that you can't do it with the normal blender mesh functions but I am very sure that N-GONS make blender more atractive :wink:

here are some exampels that show you why N-GONS :D

NO N-GONS
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d ... ngon_a.jpg
WITH N-GONS
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d ... ngon_b.jpg

extruded vertex with such a result is only possible with ngons
Image

i am looking for some programmers that support the N-GONS PROJECT
every one is welcom :D

pidhash
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:54 pm

Maybe a new good idea

Post by pidhash » Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:35 pm

I don't know if is easy for add in blender.
But seems cool :) !

ideasman
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:37 pm

Post by ideasman » Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:36 am

Im still not convinced about NGONS.

I think the best option for blender is to make tools treat co-planer groups of faces AS NGONS- Without addibng any extra data.

In face select mode I managed to add "Sel Same Co-Planer" - Checkout the Sel Same script in 2.34, things like his could effectly removwe the need for NGons.

The Problem with NGons is that you dont realy know whats going on in the Underlieing Mesh- and NGons are useually more work for the program (Blender) To handle.

- Cam

intrr
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Post by intrr » Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:36 am

May I initiate the "Why don't you just use MAX" project if you have it anyway? :)

Youssef|3d
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:02 pm

Post by Youssef|3d » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:00 am

"Why don't you just use MAX"
because I dont have it , I dont need it , I dont want it :roll:
the only 3d software that I have is blender and wings

ideasman: I know that blender has a old mesh structure and that what I offer is "to work on it"

I know that it needs much time :wink:
Without addibng any extra data.
that what you call extra data needs blender to upgrade further more i call this thread N-GONS PROJECT and a project needs time :wink:

ideasman
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Post by ideasman » Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:09 am

I do low poly modeling so I dont realy ever see a need for ngons.

NGon issues- UV Mapping- Is this a little tricky with NGons?, Its possible so I suppose it is

Blender would need to convert the NGons to Tris to render them- (I think)

I used lightwave for a while and I didnt like NGons because you didnt realy know What was goin on with the faces, they were just there in a heap and if you made the NGon non planer then Youd end up with some odd shape.

NGons the way I propose. - As an editing system but not realy changing anything.

In Edit mode meshs with adjacent Co-planer faces could be displayed as NGons (Rather like the current Object/mesh view mode)

- Selecting a series of verts and pressing F would make an Ngon - Liek Crrl Shift now, (This is only a key shortcut change.) - All co-planer faces would be made into an NGon anyway.

It the NGon was broken and became co-planer then the edge would appier and the hidden edge would be displayed- It would always be possible to display all edges Using a draw Toggle NGon/On:Off

Face select mde would be the same- If a face was co-planer and next to a face where the joining edges had the same UV/Vert colour etc then selecting the face would select all co-planer faces.

And again- Youd need to be able to enable and disable this in case the user wanted to UV map one half of the NGon differently to the other- You could display as tri-angles/quads and select the faces you wanted edit the UV/Vert cols and go back into NGon mode where the Ngon would appier as 2 ngons.

This way NGons can fit into the current blender without adding any data. All functions- liek knife subdivide etc would work the same.

- Cam
In face select mo

Youssef|3d
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:02 pm

Post by Youssef|3d » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:09 pm

at first: if you work with NGONS you must know a very importan rule :)
"never subD with NGONS or triangels"

if you model with ngons you change them to quads and the main methode that needs NGONS for a fast modelling is the boxmodelling methode
you will find many tutorials by Master Bay Raitt (my idol)
here are some tutorials that show you how to handel NGONS at the boxmodelling methode :D

http://www.secondreality.ch/
http://67.15.36.49/team/tutorials/criven/criven01.asp

LW doesnt support NGONS but thats only a question of time like cinema 4d that supports NGONS now :shock:
download the c4d 9 demo and you will see that c4d has a on/off NGONS function :o

don't forget: the openGL and the render know only triangels if you work with NGONS you see NGONS but in real there are triangels :wink:

NGON is a Project that needs time to coordinate everything that you said and i know this :wink:

z3r0_d
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Post by z3r0_d » Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:24 pm

Youssef|3d wrote:at first: if you work with NGONS you must know a very importan rule :)
"never subD with NGONS or triangels"
uhh, I'd disagree

certainly they should be avoided, as in not used in large quantities [particuarly next to each other], but they don't give horrible results on planar surfaces

in fact, you can get exactly the same resulting topology [after subdivision] if you use only quads as id you use only 4-edged verts. the ideal topology is entirely quads and 4 edged verts, but not everybody is going to make humans out of an incrediby subdivided torus.

also, bay does use triangles and ngons, just not by any means as often as quads.

another great modeler, steven stahlberg, uses ngons and triangles quite a lot [relative to bay raitt], and still gets very good results.

Youssef|3d
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:02 pm

Post by Youssef|3d » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:22 pm

there are outer-tooks, no doubt
anyway, the the rule wont harms :lol:

here is one of my favourite subD site
http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv/subdivmodeling.htm

many people don't know the possibilities of NGONS but as i said NGON is a typical profissional boxmodelling function :wink:

jesterKing
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Location: Finland

Post by jesterKing » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:04 am

I dunno, but from that last article I understand it's better to avoid ngons and keep to quads as much as possible.

From the article:
"This gives you a triangle and a pentagon [face, jk]. Bad. But easy to fix."

/jesterKing

Bellorum
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:12 pm

I think the best option for blender is to make tools treat co-planer groups of faces AS NGONS- Without addibng any extra data.

In face select mode I managed to add "Sel Same Co-Planer" - Checkout the Sel Same script in 2.34, things like his could effectly removwe the need for NGons.
That's fine, if all you want is for your architecture designs to look clean and spiffy, but that's not mainly what n-gons are about(although I'd be happy with this as a start). N-gons, for me, make it easier to plan my mesh while modeling, whereas blender leaves me with a bunch of edges where I don't need any, and which only complicate things further down the line.
I dunno, but from that last article I understand it's better to avoid ngons and keep to quads as much as possible.
As much as possible, yes. But as commented by mr. Dave Black at cgTalk:
Sometimes, N-gons can give an effect that is prefered. Some joints work well with ngons.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t= ... ght=n-gons

Please, if you will, read the whole thread:)

I understand the UV-mapping issue, and Ideasman's idea sounds swell for now. I just don't like the "n-gons suck anyway" attitude, because it's all what you make of it, ok?

And as JamChild over at nevercenter.com(silo) puts it, regarding theier new slide-tool:
Sure enough, several shapes and tweaks that were hard to do before are now quite easy. It always turns out that way when we implement something people have been asking for a lot.
Duh!;)
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

Youssef|3d
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:02 pm

Post by Youssef|3d » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:09 pm

N-gons, for me, make it easier to plan my mesh while modeling, whereas blender leaves me with a bunch of edges where I don't need any, and which only complicate things further down the line.
another reason why ngons :)

we can discuss endlessly but I opened this thread because i am looking for programmers that want to start the N-GONS Project

I know that the blender community has gifted and smart programmers and i hope they will help us :wink:

bjornmose
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Location: Denzenberg, could walk to Hölderling-Tower
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Post by bjornmose » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:11 am

For your example, there is a nice and clean solution in blender:

I. Chop of the corner with the Knife-Loop tool. This gives you full control over where the new "pyramid" will start and creates nice "quads" where ever possible.
II. Grab the corner and drag it to where ever you like.

More on topic: N-Gons have been discussed N-times.
I agree, they are very usefull when defining coplanar Objects. I see the use for "early stage" or "low level of detail" modelling. Oh yes, i would be delighted if i could switch LOD while editing. Still, in the end some magic has to clean up the mess since there is now way for "fuzzy" raytracing. Looking at it that way it becomes related to edge data structures, rules to interpolate faces and more ...
So yellling " we want N-Gons " seems to be a little short sighted.

BM

ideasman
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:37 pm

Post by ideasman » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:47 am

I propose a mode be added to blender-
NGons- On/ Off.

Then there can be added exeptions added to the code so graudualy things like face select mode can be modified t o work like ngons (coplaner faces perged into an ngon.)

Bellorum
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm

Post by Bellorum » Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:21 pm

I propose a mode be added to blender-
NGons- On/ Off.

Then there can be added exeptions added to the code so graudualy things like face select mode can be modified t o work like ngons (coplaner faces perged into an ngon.)
I was about to propose exactly that;) Of course I'm not a coder, so I'm Glad to hear it proposed by one:) I think c4d will have a similar solution, with an option for modeling tools. I'l look into it.
There's no such thing as democracy. There's only the tyranny of one, and the tyranny of many.

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